The Trinity in the Old Testament (page 5)

Narkissos

As the contest is going on, I check this thread from time to time, and tonight I smiled at the idea that within a few years both Hooberus and Herk might be sitting at the place where I'm sitting now, quietly agreeing on the evidence of polytheistic background for the Bible texts, from a liberal or even atheistic viewpoint. Cheers!

fearnotruth22

God is no trinity no matter what erroneous logic and Bible misrepresentations are show.ou need to talk with Jws and read the trinity brochure.

herk

Hooberus,

Everything is very clear now. Instead of accepting clear Bible teaching, the age-old Jewish belief and the conclusions of scholars, your choice is to abide by your own personal bias in discussing Genesis 1:26, etc. You prefer to believe that Moses, a non-trinitarian, inadvertantly spoke in trinitarian terms.

If you won't accept the Scriptures or the learning of those who know the languages of the Bible, I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion. There's no way to deal with a person who keeps repeating what he thinks again and again without giving due consideration to what the Bible actually says.

I believe angels were present at man's creation and that God in his love for them and for man delighted in conversing with them. The Jews for millenniums and most Bible scholars have taken that view. You, on the other hand, believe angels were present at man's creation, but you believe God ignored them and that he for some reason found a need to talk to himself rather than anybody else. I can see that it is a thorough waste of time to try helping you align your thinking with the Bible. I leave you with your opinion.

Herk

hooberus

Herk, you not only hold that angels were present at the creation of man ( I do not disagree with there probably being present) but you must also hold that angels had a a part in the making of man, something with no direct scriptural reference, and which goes against the concept of God alone making man (which is supported by the context as well as other scripture).

I will (Lord willing) answer your other points though.

hooberus

There is not a single text in the entire Bible where other so-called members of a trinity are mentioned when God uses the term "us." On the other hand, there are examples of where angels were present when he said "us."

Isaiah Chapter 6

1: In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2: Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3: And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4: And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6: Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9: And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John Chapter 12

37: But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39: Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41: These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42: Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The apostle John shows that Jesus Christ was the Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah the prophet saw in Isaiah Chaper 6. (Isaiah chapter 6 is the "us" passage outside of Genesis). Thus Jesus Christ (one person) is identifed as Jehovah of Isaiah Chapter 6, this fact with the fact that the Father (another person) is also Jehovah, shows that there is more than one person identified as Jehovah (I am not sayng that there is more than one God). This indicates that the "us" in Isaiah chpater 6 probably refers to a composite unity within the one true God YHWH.

hooberus

Your argument has been rejected by most trinitarian scholars, but you hold on to it as if for dear life. You even deny that humans are in the image of angels as well as of God. Still, b oth angels and men are in God's image as shown by many passages of Scripture.

I think that most trinitarian scholars appeal to Genesis 1:26 as well as the other "us" passages for evidence of composite unity within the one God. Your quote from an anti-messianic site provided no numerical survey of scholars on the subject so the claim that "most trinitarian scholars" have rejected these passages as evidence is unsubstantiated. Recent works such as that by Robert Morey site these passages and disagree with the plural of majesty theory advocated on the site that you used.

Most Bible scholars agree that elohim in the Hebrew language refers to a plural of intensity. The Word Biblical Commentary says regarding the trinitarian idea of numerical plurality, "It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."

I have not used arguments specifically advocating plurality from word elohim itself (though some others may).

Most Bible scholars agree with the Jews that Genesis 1:26 is referring to "the divine council" or "the members of God's heavenly court," namely, the holy angels.

There are Jews that believe that Genesis 1:26 supports composite unity. Where is the evidence for the claim that "Most Bible scholars" believe that Genesis 1:26 is referring to "holy angels"? (quoting some scholars as believing this does not prove that it is the majority opinion.)

Leolaia

read the trinity brochure.

There are surely better books and works from a unitarian point of view that are not so blatantly dishonest.

fearnotruth22

Leo I think that the Trinity Broch is not dececeiful and that the facts it presents and argument and logic establish that ALmighty God is not a Trinity and it also exposes the erroneous logic of TRinitarians. People however choose to reject evidence and thus I always tell people to nelive what you like but that does not imvalidate the evidemce,

Leolaia

The dishonesty in that broshure was one of the biggest things that disturbed me before I left. You may not realise its dishonesty because you haven't checked the references and the sources it cites. I already knew very well the views of the church fathers, and I was truly shocked to see how beliefs of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc. were misrepresented. The Watchtower also published an article around the same time about Polycarp that even more blatantly misquoted him. If you are not acquainted with the primary sources misquoted and misrepresented by the Watchtower, how can you make a judgment that it is not dishonest?

herk

Leolaia,

It's been a long time since I read the JW brochure, and I haven't analyzed its quotes from the church fathers. In fairness, I have to say that I've seen trinitarian publications that also misrepresent the relationship between those men and the earliest Christians. Some people will believe only what they want to believe, and trinitarians are just as guilty as anybody at reading into what others say in order to find support for their theories.

Herk

The Trinity in the Old Testament

Share this