Bare in mind
bare = empty
Bare in mind = empty in mind
bear = carry
Idiom bear in mind: To hold in one's mind = remember: Bear in mind that bridges freeze before roads.
What is this? Love ironies thread?
Jesus & God is not the same
by U.2.K. Tha Greate$t 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Faraon
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ellderwho
Me thinks some newbie posters played hookie from the book study tonight.
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chknjetski
Aztec- Hi. Welcome to the site. Who're 'you people'? Just curious.
Feh. I am just generalizing about some of the posters here. Thanks for the welcome. Where does a fella find a quick tutorial about the ins and outs of the board? As you can see from my quoting abilities above, I am in serious need.
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chknjetski
ellderwho-
Me thinks some newbie posters played hookie from the book study tonight.
Hey! I think I should be offended by that. Let me ask someone...
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U.2.K. Tha Greate$t
Yerusalyim im not a christian so your question does not concern me. And for the rest of yall who think im a witness, im not and i never will be for personal reasons.
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Tyre
Syalom U.2.K and JWs,
The Deity of Christ is not something that is ambiguous in scripture. Even in the faulty NWT, it is crystal clear when comparing verses from things solely about Jehovah, to things that are said about Jesus. It is very long, huh!!
This article presents some of the best scriptural evidence of Christ's Deity as it exists in the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation (NWT). Before reading this article Jehovah's Witnesses may deny that the NWT contains even a hint of Christ's Deity. They are constantly instructed by the Watchtower Society to reject believing in Christ's Godhood.
When scriptural points are raised from other translations, Jehovah's Witnesses always have the excuse; "It's not translated correctly in that Bible." When the same questions are raised and answered from the NWT they can no longer avoid the answers with such ease.
PS: verse references marked with a "*" indicate a clear reference to Christ's Deity in the NWT.
WHO IS GOD?
Jehovah *De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
*De 32:39 no gods with JehovahNo Other "Gods" *Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
*Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
*Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
*Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.No Other "gods" *De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
*Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other godsALL OTHER GODS OR gods ARE FALSE
Baal
*Judges 6:31 Baal, GodDagon
*Judges 16:23-24 Dagon, godSatan
*2 Cor 4:4 Satan, godHerod
*Acts 12:21-23 Herod, a godARE THERE MANY GODS OR MANY gods? *Ps 96:4-5 One True God by nature
*Gal 4:8 those who by nature are not gods.
*1 Cor 8:4-5 One God in 8:4. 8:5 is referring to idols who by nature are not gods, as seen in Gal 4:8This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God.
WHO IS LORD?
God *Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
*Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and EarthJehovah *De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
*1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lordsJesus *1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
*Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later.
HOW MANY LORDS ARE THERE?
One Lord
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus ChristWHO IS SAVIOR?
God *Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
*Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
* 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
*2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
*Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
*Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
*Ps 106:21 God their Savior
*Is 43:3 God your Savior
*Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
*Lu 1:47 God my Savior
*1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
*1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
*Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
*Jude 25 the only God our SaviorJehovah Alone *Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
*Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
*Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
*Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
*Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and RepurchaserJesus *Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
*Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
*Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
*John 4:42 the savior of the world
*Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
*Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
*Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
*2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
*2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
*2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the worldWHO IS OWNER AND LORD?
Jesus *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ep 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith. Who is the one Lord? Jehovah or Jesus?WHO FORGIVES SINS?
God *Mk 2:7 God alone can forgive sin
*Lk 5:21 God alone can forgive sinJesus *Mk 2:5-7,10 Jesus forgives sin
*Lk 5:24 Jesus forgives sinWHO PURCHASED CHURCH WITH HIS OWN BLOOD?
God Ac 20:28 Why is [Son] in brackets? How can this be "understood" without being in the Greek text explicitly?
SAVED BY FAITH IN WHO?
Jesus *Ac 4:12 There is not another name under heaven by which we must be saved. Whose name is this?
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name. Who is "him?"
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
*1 John 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 John 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ro 3:19-26,28 man is declared righteous by faith in Jesus
*Ro 10:9 declare that Jesus is Lord and exercise faith... for salvationWHO CREATED ALL THINGS?
God *Ep 3:9 God, who created all things
Jehovah alone *Is 44:24 I, Jehovah..., stretching out the heavens by myself. This does not allow for a "junior partner" in creation. Jehovah clearly states that He Himself created the heavens without the aid of anyone else.
*Is 48:13 My own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens. This does not allow a "junior partner" in creation. See also Heb 3:1-4Jesus *Jo 1:1-3 all things came into existence through him. If Jesus is a created being then he is a "thing". But this verse says all "things" came into existence through Jesus. This excludes Jesus from the realm of "things" and puts him in the class of being uncreated, eternal, not part of the created world.
Col 1:16 by him all [other] things were created. What is [other]? How can that be "understood" if it isn't present in the original language?
Rev 3:14 arkhe = beginning Note: same arkhe applied to Jehovah in Rev 21:5-7. How is Jehovah the "beginning" as the WT demands that arkhe must be translated? [Should You Believe In The Trinity? p.14]
*Ps 102:24-27 Who? Jehovah?
*Heb 1:10-12 This is a direct quote of Ps 102:24-27 and is applied to Jesus. See also Is 44:24Is Jesus a "master worker" with Jehovah in creation? WT says yes from Prov 8:3. Prov 8 is a personification of Wisdom speaking in a feminine voice (which NWT does not accurately reflect even though WT has confessed of the speaker's feminine gender in Prov 8.) See Prov 7:4 and 9:4 for the gender of "wisdom" in Proverbs. Why did the NWT translate wisdom in chapter 8 as "it" instead of "she" as the original language indicates?
WHO IS FIRST AND LAST?
Jehovah *Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
*Is 48:12 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the lastJesus *Rev 1:17-18 I am the First and I am the Last, and the living one; and I became dead...
*Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again
*Rev 22:12-13, 20 Look! I am coming quickly, ... I am the first and the last
*Rev 22:16,20 I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you... Yes; I am coming quickly.
*Rev 4:8 Holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming.WHO IS ALPHA AND OMEGA?
Jehovah *Rev 1:8 Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty
Jesus *Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega = first and last. Who is this?
*Rev 22:16 Shows Jesus as speaking in vs 12-13
*Rev 1:12-18 Who is the Son of man? Jesus. What does he call himself? First and Last. First and Last = Alpha and Omega = the Almighty. Jesus is Almighty God.
*Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega is "coming." Is Jehovah "coming?"SHOULD WE BOW BEFORE ANOTHER GOD OR god?
No *Ex 34:14 Don't prostrate before another god.
Jesus *Php 2:9-11 Knees bend at the name of Jesus
Father *Ep 3:14 Knees bend before the Father
WHO RECEIVES WORSHIP?
God Matt 4:10 Worship the Lord God only
Jesus In all of these verses the NWT has replaced the word "worship" with "obeisance."
Matt 2:2,11 Magi worship Christ
Matt 14:33 Disciples worship Jesus
Matt 28:9 the Marys worship Jesus
Matt 28:16-17 The eleven worship Jesus
John 9:38 The healed blind man worshipped Jesus
Heb 1:6 All angels worship Jesus
Rev 5:11-14 Millions of angels worship JesusPeople worshipped other people or angels and were rebuked for it. See Rev 19:10; 22:8-9; Ac 10:25
What is obeisance? Watchtower defines it as follows, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person..." (Reasoning, p.215) Applying the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance to the verses describing people giving obeisance to Jesus, we could say that they "prostrated themselves before a god" since Jesus is "a god" in Watchtower theology. This is a clear and logical conclusion to reach by following the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance and who they believe Jesus is. Upon reaching this conclusion we need to go immediately to the following verse.
*Ex 34:14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.While the Watchtower attempts to draw the unwarranted conclusion that "obeisance" to Jesus is somehow different than worship, their own definition of obeisance leads them into clear and direct conflict with Ex 34:14. Either Jesus is God or those rendering obeisance to him are guilty of "prostrating themselves before another god."
This refutes the Watchtower's claim that "obeisance" to Jesus is ok because it is not worship. The Watchtower has inadvertently admitted that worship is given to Jesus in the Reasoning book p. 214. The question is stated as follows, "Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?"
The chart below is a list of every occurrence of the Greek word "proskuneo" that I could find in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (1969). This work was produced by the New World Translation Bible committee in accordance with the Watchtower organization. An interlinear is a word for word translation of the Greek text. Included in this Watchtower interlinear is the text of the New World Translation Bible placed in a column on each page so the reader can see exactly how the NWT renders each occurrence of the verb "proskuneo."
The word "proskuneo" means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship." Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God, they maintain that He is not to be worshipped. So, how does the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society translate the word "proskuneo" in their Greek New Testament in reference to Jesus and other objects of adoration? The NWT never translates the word into "worship" when it references Jesus. It does, however, render the word as "worship" in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, and an angel. Of course, they correctly translate it as "worship" when it deals with God.
Is the New World Translation biased against worshipping Jesus? It would surely seem so, especially since the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc., all translate the word as "worship" in reference to Jesus.
What is curious is to note that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society used to teach that worshipping Jesus was acceptable:"The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Yes we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God. The word ?God? signifies a ?mighty one,? and our Lord was indeed a mighty one. So it is stated in the first two verses of the gospel of John. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father. . ." (The Watchtower, July 15, 1898, p. 216.)
It seems that as the Watchtower theology changed, they needed a Bible consistent with those changes; hence, the New World Translation. Following is a chart listing every appearance of the word "proskuneo" in the New World Translation. Let's see if the bias of the Watchtower organization is obvious.
The word "proskuneo" occurs 55 times in the Watchtower Kingdome Interlinear. Of those 55, 15 are in reference to Jesus with 40 used of others. 27% of the usage is of Jesus and not a single reference is translated as "worship" even though in reference to the devil, demons, idols, etc., they do translate it as worship. If this doesn't demonstrate their bias, then what does?Verse Jesus God Demons dragon,
beast,
imageDevil Generic Idols Peter angel Matt. 2:2 obeisance Matt. 2:8 obeisance Matt. 2:11 obeisance Matt. 4:9 worship Matt. 4:10 worship Matt. 8:2 obeisance Matt. 9:18 obeisance Matt. 14:33 obeisance Matt. 15:25 obeisance Matt. 18:26 obeisance Matt. 20:20 obeisance Matt. 28:9 obeisance Matt. 28:17 obeisance Mark 5:6 obeisance Mark 15:19 obeisance Luke 4:7 worship Luke 4:8 worship Luke 24:52 obeisance John 4:20 worship John 4:21 worship John 4:22 worship John 4:23 worship John 4:23 worship John 4:24 worship John 9:38 obeisance John 12:20 worship Acts 7:43 worship Acts 8:27 worship Acts 10:25 obeisance Acts 24:11 worship 1 Cor. 14:25 worship Heb. 1:6 obeisance Heb. 11:21 worship Rev. 3:9 obeisance Rev. 4:10 worship Rev. 5:14 worship Rev. 7:11 worship Rev. 9:20 worship Rev. 11:1 worship Rev. 11:16 worship Rev. 13:4 worship Rev. 13:8 worship Rev. 13:12 worship Rev. 13:15 worship Rev. 14:7 worship Rev. 14:9 worship Rev. 14:11 worship Rev. 15:4 worship Rev. 16:2 worship Rev. 19:4 worship Rev. 19:10 worship Rev. 19:20 worship Rev. 20:4 worship Rev. 22:8 worship Rev. 22:9 worship As you can see, the NWT is very bias in how it translates the word "proskuneo." Whenever it is in reference to Jesus, they absolutely will not let it be translated as worship. Why? Because they erringly deny that Jesus is God in flesh and their Bible reflects their bias. This is not how proper theology is done.
The Watchtower Organization has changed the Bible to suit its needs.JESUS NAME IS EXALTED IN NEW TESTAMENT *Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Lk 10:17 demons are made subject to us by use of your name
*Ac 16:18 I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her
*Lk 24:47 on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name
*1 Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 Jo 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ac 4:12 there is not another name under heaven... by which we must be saved
*Jo 14:13-14, 26 whatever you ask in my name, I will do it
*Ac 3:16 our faith in his name has made this man strong
*Ac 4:7-10,30 healing and signs come in the name of Jesus
*1 Co 1:2 with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
*Ep 1:21 far above every name named
*Php 2:9-11 the name that is above every other name
*Ac 1:8 you will be witnesses of meWHO KNOWS MEN'S HEARTS?
Jehovah alone *1 Ki 8:39 Jehovah alone knows all men's hearts
Jesus *Rev 2:23 Jesus searches the hearts of all men
*Mat 9:4 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Mat 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Lk 6:8 Jesus knew their reasoning
*Lk 9:47 Jesus knew the reasoning of their heartsFULLNESS OF DEITY
Jesus Col 2:8-9 What does KIT say? Divine quality or Deity? What does "all" mean? What does "fullness" mean? Theotes vs. Theiotes or Essence vs. Quality. Theotes is "fullness" used here to describe Jesus, showing that the "essence of God dwells in him bodily." It isn't a question of him having divine qualities. Instead it shows that he is God in the flesh.
WHO IS THE SHEPHERD?
Jehovah
*Ps 23:1 Jehovah is my Shepherd
*Is 40:10-11 Jehovah is like a shepherdJesus *Jo 10:11 Jesus is the fine shepherd
WHO IS MIGHTY GOD?
Jehovah *Is 10:20-21 the Mighty God, Jehovah
*Jer 32:18 the mighty one, JehovahJesus *Is 9:6 Jesus is Mighty God
IS JESUS GOD? In all but the last verse of the following references the NWT mistranslates each one.
Titus 2:13
Heb 1:8
Ps 45:6
2 Pe 1:1
1 Jo 5:20
*Is 9:6 Mighty GodIS JESUS JEHOVAH? *Ro 10:9-13 Publicly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead and you will be saved.
*Ro 10:9 (Whose name are you calling on for salvation?)
*Ro 10:10 With the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (What public declaration? That Jesus is Lord.)
*Ro 10:11 None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed. (Who is "him?" He is the subject of verses 9 and 10, Jesus.)
*Ro 10:12 One Lord, rich to those calling on him. (On who? Vs 9 identifies that we are to call on Jesus by name.)
*Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Return to vs. 9 to see whose name must be called on to be saved. It is Jesus. What Paul was doing in vs 9-13 was clearly explaining that Jesus is God based on OT verses about God (Joel 2:32) applied directly to Jesus. Verse 9 and verse 13 are references to the same profession that saves, precisely that Jesus is Lord. Verse 13 is identifying the same one to call on for salvation that is named in verse 9.)
*Ep 1:21 Jesus' name above every name in this system and the system to come
*Ac 4:12 Salvation in Jesus' name alone
*Php 2:9 Jesus' name above every other name
*Ex 34:12-15 Jehovah's command not to prostrate before other gods. Note that Jehovah condemns little "g" gods here. If JWs were to bow before Jesus then according to their theology they would be bowing before a little "g" god. This would violate Jehovah's command. But Jehovah has said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bend. (Php 2:9-11) Would Jehovah command that people bend their knees to Jesus when he has expressly forbidden bowing before other gods?
*Ep 3:14 compare with Php 2:9
*Is 45:22-24 for OT parallel of bowing to the Father that Paul was quoting in Php 2:9 and applying to Jesus in saying that "every knee will bend down and every tongue will swear". It is a direct quote from the OT referring to Jehovah and is applied clearly and directly to Jesus. Paul definitely believed that Jesus is Jehovah.
Zech 14:3-5 with Mat 25:31 and Ac 1:11-12 Who is returning with the holy ones? Jesus or Jehovah?
Zech 14:5 with 1 Thess 3:13IS JESUS ALMIGHTY? *Heb 1:3 He sustains all things by the word of his power. Is this mighty or almighty? Could anything less than "all might" sustain "all things?"
*Rev 4:8 Jehovah God, who was and is and is to come, the Almighty. Who is coming? Jehovah or Jesus?
*Rev 22:20 Jesus is coming as identified in Rev 4:8. Jesus is Almighty God.IS JESUS OMNIPRESENT? *Mat 18:20 Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Mat 28:20 I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of thingsDOES JESUS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY? *Ma 28:18 all means all
WHAT IS HEADSHIP? *1 Co 11:3 Headship, not quality of being. Is man a superior human in quality compared to woman? No. Therefore this verse cannot be teaching that Christ is inferior to the Father if it is not teaching that women are inferior to men. If it is teaching that Christ is inferior in quality to the Father, then language demands that the same inferiority of quality be applied to women, and we know that it cannot be.
WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN MEAN? *Co 1:15 Jesus is firstborn of all creation. Does this refer to order of creation or to the headship of Christ? The Greek word used is proto-tokos. There is a different Greek word that specifically means 'first created', proto-tiktos.
*Ps 89:20-27 David was not born first.
Also, who was Joseph's firstborn? See Ge 41:50-52, Ge 48:1-20, Ps 89:27, and Jer 31:7-9IS JESUS EQUAL TO JEHOVAH? *1 Cor 15:28 This verse identifies a change in the Son's position relative to the Father. What is the Son's position before subjecting himself to the Father? Equal to! This verse describes a change in position. The Son "becomes subject" to the Father. This means that at some point he is not subject and he changes position to "become subject." Note the presence of "when" and "then" in the verse.
DOES JESUS SHARE JEHOVAH'S GLORY? *Is 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah's vision of Jehovah's glory is applied by John to Jesus in verse 41. He says Isaiah saw his glory. Who did John mean by [his] and who did Isaiah see?
*Is 42:8 with John 17:5. Jehovah will not share his glory yet Jesus has glory alongside Jehovah
*John 12:45 Can any creature claim this? No. Jesus is not like any created being.
*Is 48:11 Jehovah will not give his glory to anyone else.IS JESUS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER? *John 12:45 He that beholds me beholds him that sent me
*2 Co 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
*He 1:3 the exact representation of his very being
*John 8:19 if you knew me, you would know my Father also
*John 12:44 he who puts faith in me
*John 14:7-9 know me, know my Father also
Col 2:9 Theotes vs. Theiotes or (Essence vs. Quality)IS JESUS MASTER? *Col 3:24 Slave for the Master, Christ
WHO IS THE STUMBLING STONE?
Jehovah *Is 8:13-14 Who? Jehovah.
Jesus *1 Pe 2:6-8 Who? Jesus.
HOLY SPIRIT SENT IN WHOSE NAME?
Father *Lk 10:17 Father's name.
Jesus *John 14:26 Jesus' name
WHO DO WE SERVE?
Jehovah alone *Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"
God and Jesus *Jam 1:1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus *Ro 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus
*2 Co 5:15 Live for him who died for us
*Ga 1:10 Christ's slave
*Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Jesus
*Co 3:24 slave for the Master, Christ
*Co 4:12 Epaphras, a slave of Jesus Christ
*Jude 1 Jude, a slave of Jesus ChristCHRIST'S HUMILIATION OR EMPTYING OF HIMSELF TO BECOME A MAN *Php 2:7 he emptied himself
*John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am
*John 20:17 I am ascending to my God and your God
*Ac 17:30-31 he purposes to judge by a man he has appointed
*1 Co 11:3 Is this quality of being? Is man by nature superior to woman? Or is this headship which does not imply any innate superior quality of the one holding the headship? Yes. See 1 Co 15:28.WHO HAS WITNESSES?
Jehovah *Is 43:10 "You are my witnesses" says Jehovah
*Is 44:6-8 you are my witnessesJesus *Ac 1:8 You will be witnesses of me
*Ac 13:31 who are now his witnesses
Ac 8:35 Philip witnessed about JesusIS JESUS MICHAEL? *Dan 10:13,21 Michael, one of the foremost princes
*Dan 12:1 Michael will stand up
*Jude 9 when Michael had a difference with the Devil he did not dare to bring a judgment against him
*Lk 4:8 Jesus rebukes satan
*Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels worship him
*Php 2:9 the name that is above every other name
*Heb 1:6 Jesus is above all angels. The text does not say "all other angels." It says all angels and shows that Jesus is not included in that group. Thus he cannot be Michael the Archangel.COME TOGETHER IN JESUS' NAME *Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name
HEALING COMES IN JESUS' NAME *Ac 4:7-10 Healed a lame man by faith in the name of Jesus
*Ac 3:16 his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strongSIGNS COME IN JESUS' NAME *Ac 4:30 signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus
DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO JESUS' NAME *Lk 10:17 the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name
WHO ANSWERS PRAYER?
Father *Jo 15:16 Father's name
Jesus *John 14:13-14 Jesus answers
*Lk 10:17 Jesus' name
*Ac 7:59-60 Stephen prayed to JesusIS CHRIST IN US? John 15:4-5 NWT says 'in union with us'. This is especially inconsistent seeing that similar Greek construction 'in the vine' doesn't have 'union with' inserted into it.
John 17:23,26 Why 'union with' added to verse 23? In vs 26 same phrase of love 'in them' doesn't say 'in union with'.
Ro 8:9-10 God's spirit in you... Christ in union with you. Vs. 9 shows the Spirit "in you." Vs. 10 says Christ is "in union with you." This obscures our deep personal relationship with Christ, with him living "in us." In vs. 9 "in you" comes from Greek [en humin]. Vs.10 also says [en humin] but the NWT chooses to obscure the issue by translating it as "in union with." Why the inconsistency?
2 Cor 13:5 Jesus in us is the test of the faith. Once again NWT has added 'union with.' More examples of addition of 'union with': Ga 1:15-16, Ga 2:20IS CHRIST'S SPIRIT EQUAL TO GOD'S SPIRIT *Ro 8:9 True Christians have God's spirit and Christ's spirit dwelling in them.
WHO RAISED JESUS?
God *1 Thess 1:9-10 Whom he [God] raised up from the dead
*Ac 2:24 God raised Jesus from the dead.Jesus *Jo 2:19,21 I will raise it up
WHO IS THE JUDGE OF MAN?
Jesus *Jo 5:22-23 Jesus
*2 Cor 5:10 JesusWHO IS LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Jesus *Ma 12:8 Jesus
JESUS' CLAIMS ABOUT HIMSELF *Jo 5:18 The Jews understood Jesus made himself equal with God.
*Jo 10:28-33 The Jews said "You make yourself God."
*Jo 10:36 "I am God's Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God. Jews considered it blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be God by saying this. They wanted to stone him. There are five reasons for stoning:Spiritism Lev 20:27 Blasphemy Lev 24:10-23 False Prophecy Deut 13:5-10 Stubborn son Deut 21:18-21 Adultery or rape Deut 22:21-24 Lev 20:10
JESUS AT BIRTH
Lord
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become Lord later or was he Lord from birth?Christ
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become the Christ at his baptism by John? TFOR FUTURE READING
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ118.HTM
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SanFranciscoJim
im not a christian so your question does not concern me
Then why even concern yourself with who Jesus is/was?
"It does not compute"
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dustyb
heh tyre, you beat me to it. i was just about to do that. NWT is very bias in its translations. (btw its a forum and i don't care about spelling =D)
anyways blah blah blah blah. You can go on and on about the diety of christ, but before you do, read daniel 12 or something that actually gives a 1/2 way decent arguement =D
and thats a good question, why are you so worried about jesus if you aren't religious? tyty
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Tyre
Syalom DustyB,
Why I Care About the Identity of Michael
Michael is the name of an archangel, I refer to on What About Angels? page. Unfortunately, some people believe that Michael is actually Jesus Christ, appearing in the form of an angel. Aside from being incorrect (which I will prove on this threat) the real problem is that such a belief alters the value of Jesus Christ. For an explanation of why it is wrong to alter the value of Jesus Christ, see the ?Public Enemy Number One? box on ?What is a Cult?? page.
To clarify this issue, please examined all the references to the name Michael in the Bible. To decide who these ?Michaels? were, I used one principle of hermeneutics, which states ?if the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense.? These references fell into four basic groups:
Group One?Michael in the Old Testament ?History Books?
The name Michael appears once in Numbers, seven times in 1 Chronicles, once in 2 Chronicles, and once in Ezra. It is obvious to the reader that all ten of these ?Michaels? were men named Michael.
Group Two?Michael in the Book of Daniel
Jesus is called a prince:
A. The Prince of peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
B. The Prince of princes. (Daniel 8:25)
C. Messiah, the Prince. (Daniel 9:25)
D. The Prince of life. (Acts 3:1.5)
E. Prince and Saviour. (Acts 5:31)
F. Prince of the kings of the earth. (Rev. 1:5)
He is not the only prince in the Bible:
A. Jacob was called a prince. (Gen. 23:6)
B. David was called a prince. (Ezekiel 34:24)
C. Satan called the prince of this world. (John 12:31, 14:30,16:11)
D. Satan referred to as "The prince of the power of the air," (Ephesians 2:2)
Christ is a Prince, but there are other princes. To say that 'Christ is not one of anything,' is not accurate. He is One of the Trinity. The fact that there are other princes', calling Him one of them does not reduce Him to the same level as the others. When angels worship Christ who is the Chief Messenger, the Prince of the angelic host, they are not worshipping another angel but rather the Creator of the angels.
Again, Daniel has two references to the name Michael in chapter 10. The first calls Michael ?one of the chief princes.? Being identified as one of a group (even of princes) is not a description of Jesus. Such an interpretation would clearly contradict the remainder of the Bible, which refers to Jesus as a single, unique being?the Christ (Messiah) and only Son of God. The second reference to Michael says nothing that could indicate that this ?second Michael? is not the same as the ?first Michael.? Therefore, it is safe to say that the ?second Michael? is not the Christ either. Identifying the Michael in Daniel chapter 10 as an angel makes the most sense.
Chapter 12 contains the third reference to the name Michael in the book of Daniel. It refers to Michael as ?The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people.? Here, Michael is presented as the guardian angel of Israel?in the same way that Persia has a heavenly ?prince of the kingdom? in Daniel chapter 10, verse 13 (the prince they are doing battle with).
?Group? Three?Michael in the Book of Jude
The next ?Michael? appears in Jude. He is clearly identified as an archangel.
Did Michael rebuke Satan?
Jud 1:9 But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil, he argued about the body of Moses, he dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy, but said, Let the Lord rebuke you!
In Jude 9 we find that Michael the Archangel did not dare rebuke Satan.
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said the Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9)"
Did Jesus rebuke Satan? Yes
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said to him, Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve."
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."
The question I'd like to ask is, will they call Michael the prince of angels the Savior? Will they pray to Michael ?
?Group? Four?Michael in the Book of Revelation
First . The final reference to the name Michael is in Revelation chapter 12, verse 7 where ?Michael and his angels? fight ?the dragon and his angels.? The most logical way to interpret this passage (remember our rule of hermeneutics) is as a description of warfare between two armies of angels, each led by an angel?Michael leading one army and Satan (the dragon) leading the other.
Also, the book of Revelation refers to Jesus as ?Jesus Christ? seven times, ?Jesus? six times, ?Christ? four times, ?Lord Jesus? once, and ?Lord Jesus Christ? once. Why would the author of the book of Revelation suddenly call Jesus Christ by the name Michael? It makes no sense?especially since there is nothing anywhere else in the Bible that would support a sudden name change like that.
Second . But look at this quotes below :
Luk 10:18 And He [Jesus] said to them, I saw Satan fall FROM Heaven like lightning.
see position of Jesus ---> in Earth
Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred, 8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out INTO the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
see position of Michael ---> in Heaven
If Jesus and Michael are the same person. How could be one person at the different places ?
Well !! Another book says about angels below
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He say at any time, "You are My Son, this day I have begotten You?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
The answer is none of them ! Michael is an angel or created creature, one of many chief ones.
The Conclusion
Adding up the many references to the name Michael in the Bible, it is clear that this name is only used for an angel (or angels) and men. There is not one place where a literal and logical reading of the text could be taken to represent Jesus Christ. Of course, you are free to interpret Michael as makes sense to you.
Future reading
http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/michaelbecomesjesus.html
http://neirr.org/Is%20Jesus%20Really%20Michael.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd21.htm
http://www.witnessinc.com/Topics/jesusm/jesusm.htm
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.
AMEN
WELL.....WHICH ONE "IS" IT? Betcha huh!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/michael.html
The Watchtower Society just can't seem to make up their mind as to the real identity of Michael:
"...Michael is not the Son of God..." WT November, 1879, p.4
"Jesus, before he became a man, was a spiritual being of a nature superior to angels....he took not on him the nature of angels..." WT, March, 1883, p.4
"Michael, - "Who as God," - the Pope." The Finished Mystery, 1917, p.188
"...the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name after his return to heaven..." Reasoning From the Scriptures, 1985, p.218
"...the man Jesus is dead, forever dead,..." Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 5, 1899, p. 454
Let?s See this Quotes below
2Co 11:3
But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ.
2Co 11:4
For if, indeed, the one coming proclaims another Jesus, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit, which you did not receive, or another gospel, which you never accepted, you might well endure these .
WHO IS PROCLAIMS ANOTHER JESUS ?
Come on you knew the answer, right ?
I still keep that Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. Heb 13:8
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A Paduan
A paduan you knew what i meant man.
Yes - that you thought Jesus statement extrapolated into something like "don't call me good master" - though it doesn't
take heed then how you hear, for to him who has more will be given