A serious question about the angels that materialized pre-flood

by TweetieBird 48 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  heathen

  Leolaia-- The book of Enoch has got to be one of the most obvious forgeries ever written .

  The angels in heaven are often referred to as the sons of God not the daughters so I can understand the allignment with a masculine physical nature . It is interesting how they could produce sperm tho as they were never intended to procreate but to remaim celibate and it was considered an unnatural lust for them to take wives from the daughters of man .Even if they had a choice I think most would prefer to be male because they would probly take several wives and would not be tied down with being pregnant , so it would have been a matter of convenience as well . Interesting tho how the nephilim are called the men of fame and such but there doesn't seem like any credable accounts of their fame was recorded .

  BTW --- The Return of the King was awesome .
• 

  imallgrowedup

  Heathen -

  The site I referrenced above is pretty much dedicated to the "Smithsonian Conspiracy", which basically says that the Smithsonian refuses to put any skeletal remains of what could be the Nephilim on display. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if these allegations are true, it would explain why we've not seen any of these bones. I can tell you that if I personally saw any of these alledged remains, it would change how I perceive our entire existence. In fact, I believe it would change everyone's view That could be enough to keep them buried in locked boxes somewhere in a dark basement of the Smithsonian.

  growedup of the "it could happen!" class
• 

  funkyderek

  One minute mankind are living in caves banging rocks together and the next they have a knowledge of advanced astronomy (some of which we have only uncovered in the last 120 years or so), mathematics, acountancy, irrigation, the calender (described in Enoch), cosmetics and the roots of most of our knowledge. How did thi shappen.
  
  THERE IS SOMETHING WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT OUR HISTORY.

  No, there is something you don't understand about our history. There was no such overnight advancement in human technology. Knowledge was acquired gradually, useful knowledge was passed on to the next generation and built upon. No mystery, no conspiracy, no big question.
• 

  heathen

  Imallgrowedup--- I agree that they should disclose any information they have regarding the fossil record . I looked at the picture of the jaw bone on the giant site so it definately raises questions that only further research can answer. It seems the scientific community is only interested in the evolution theories and will stop at nothing to convince people of something that is only theory and can not be proven. Personally I don't have a problem with the flood story mainly because jesus was quoted in the new testament as making it a fact .
• 

  Swan

  Here is even a better set of questions for the JWs. I haven't thought about this for a long time, but this thread brought it back to mind. It gave me major doubts back in the 80's. JW's, I ask you,

  Is it true that Jehovah God created human beings (Adam and Eve)?

  Did Jesus have this power?

  Did Satan have this power?

  Did the angels have this power?

  When I was a JW I was taught that Jehovah, and only Jehovah, can created humans. This was what made him special. All of the magazines, books, and Society's literature referred to him as the Creator.

  Then how did the demons (and angels) have the power to materialize living bodies, made of flesh and blood, and genetically capable of producing sperm with enough human-like chromosomes to reproduce with human females to the point of creating hybrid offspring?

  Did God cause the flood to keep his patent? Was he afraid one of the demons would stumble onto the right genetic blueprint to create human offspring instead of hybrids?

  Are the angels and Jehovah that close in power? Is Jehovah just the first to create humans? What if the angel Gabriel had created us first? Would you then be Gabriel's Witnesses? What set Jehovah apart from the angels, if they can all create humans? Why should we not give all of them worship, if they are all capable of being our creator?

  Isn't it more likely that the Genesis flood account is a myth, like so many others that follow the same archetype of powerful being from the skies? We see it over and over again in many cultures because it is a powerful plot device that strikes a cord in our psyche's, from the ancient Greek gods and stories of Hercules (son of Zeus) all the way down to Superman in our modern time.

  Yes, I had many questions back then. And the JWs couldn't begin to answer the simplest of them.

  Tammy
• 

  Narkissos

  To AlanB and Heathen: The Book of Henoch (which is only complete in its Ethiopian version, although several older fragments in Greek and Aramaic have been found) was probably written from the 2nd century BC to the 1st century CE. Although it is certainly not "historical" in any sense, it had a big influence on the NT: as Leolaia said, it is quoted as Scripture in Jude 14f. The Gospels' formula "Son of Man", for instance, would not be understandable without it.
• 

  Leolaia

  Leolaia-- The book of Enoch has got to be one of the most obvious forgeries ever written

  Yeah, to us today it sure is, but it was esteemed by the Essenes (who used it at Qumrun) and quoted even by Jude as the real words of Enoch. It's as phony baloney as any of the other wild stories passed around, but it made a huge impact on Christianity. There was a huge amount of pseudepigrapha in the Hellenistic period, and some of it like the Book of Daniel, even got into the Bible.

  Interesting tho how the nephilim are called the men of fame and such but there doesn't seem like any credable accounts of their fame was recorded

  No, indeed there was! I wrote a longish post about this a few weeks ago. One of these "men of fame" was the ancient hero Danel, whose tale is preserved in Canaanite legends. Danel was a Rephaim -- a term that became practically synonymous with Nephilim. Ezekiel repeatedly made mention of Danel's wisdom and attempts at saving his son (known otherwise from the Lay of Aqhat). By the time 1 Enoch was written, Danel was reconceptualized as one of the fallen angels.

  Also several scholars have suggested that the tale of Nimrod in Gen. 10 originally followed the story of the Nephilim, but became dislocated from its original context when the Flood story was later added. It is interesting that the Nephilim are called gibbor "mighty ones" and yet in Gen. 10, Nimrod is called "the first who was a gibbor on the earth." There is even a saying about him, which fits with the Nephilim being "men of fame". Furthermore, later Jewish tradition viewed the builders of the Tower of Babel as "giants" (cf. Pseudo-Eupolemus). There is additional evidence that the story of the Nephilim/Rephaim originally knew nothing of a Flood (cf. the references in the Book of Numbers, which present the Nephilim as still living in Canaan) and that the story of the Flood was a later addition.

  Leolaia
• 

  LittleToe

  Which came first, the letter of Jude, or the Psuedopigraphal work "Book of Henoch"?
  
• 

  Leolaia

  1 Enoch came first. It was among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumrun: 4QEn a - 4QEn g , these include 1 Enoch 1, the chapter quoted by Jude. Furthermore, there are at least 5 other allusions to Enoch in the short epistle of Jude other than this direct quotation. Jude is very much steeped in the language and thought of this book. The Book of Revelation also shows quite a bit of influence as well.

  Leolaia
• 

  Narkissos

  Aside from the "Son of Man", the warlike Lamb (arnion) of Revelation (distinct from the amnos of GJohn) is a direct and striking influence of the Book of Henoch (89--90).