Fraud

by fulltimestudent 20 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Skedaddle

  At the end of the day, jdubs do not steal peoples lives. Individuals choose to follow a set of beliefs.

  I was born-in and so are many others. My young brain was brainwashed before I knew of any other notion. Where was my choice?

  Individuals choose to shun family members. Individuals choose to withhold blood related medical treatment. Very painful i know but this is where personal accountability comes in and why it is so important to either get out completely and/or actively work at helping others to get out.

  JW's shun people and refuse blood after they are brainwashed. I never heard of a new JW or a non-JW say oh, shunning is a very reasonable thing to do and the no-blood policy is no biggy, tell me where to sign. BRAINWASHING and emotional manipulation happens first.

  Religeous freedome is extremely important. Even more important though is the ability to question and rebel against religion.

  Religious freedom is a seperate issue to what defines a credible religion. A religion, who's members are not afforded said freedom to leave, who's brainwashing techniques and hushing about certain beliefs that get drip-fed in time are used in order to attract and retain followers, is not a credible religion, it's a fraud and as such should be challenged by the government to change before being banned. You think that's harsh? My government is paying the bill for the clean-up operation for each member that is damaged by said religion that's tricked them, with tax-payer money. A religion that is brainwashing members into not working, not getting a good education, asking for excessive and expensive medical proceedures, not partaking in society, not following certain laws, not letting it's members talk to non-believers, ostracisizing ex members etc. causes a huge burden on tax-payers and a damage to society cohesion - Tax-payers which the government represents. I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to but when damage is caused by misrepresentation and emotional blackmail and brainwashing, that is a threat and needs dealing with for the very country that is supposedly free, would be sustaining an environment for a suppressive regime with no limitations if not. While you may pussy-foot around your rights, leaders are dealing with religion being used as a weapon against the peacefulness of their country. It's not always about the individual. Sometimes it's about fighting for survival of the group. So leaders should have the right to question and rebel against a damaging religion that's a burden on society. I hope I've made sense.
• 

  pbrow

  I agree that financials should not be secret if they are getting tax exempt status. In fact, no religion should be tax exempt. I think it a plausible arguement that tax exemption for religions goes against the constitution (Im in the US)

  Skedaddle... I too am a born in. My excuse of being brainwashed ended (legally) that is, when I turned 18. No doubt we were indoctrinated. I was so weak minded that it took me 12 more years to get out! That is on me. Who else was going to "do my thinking for me?" There is no other explanation for it... I was indocrinated yes, but only when I chose to think for myself was I able to get out. No one was going to change my mind until I did. It took raising two children in the church to wake me the fuck up! As much as I agree with you that dubs are indoctrinated, at the end of the day my mother, my brother, my aunts, uncles and grandparents are choosing to remain in, just as I chose to gtfo!

  The members absolutely have the freedom to leave!! What those same people do not want though is to pay the cost for leaving. That is on them. That is life brother. I am not saying freedom of thought is easy or without pain but it is necessary pain. Some people actually do want someone else to do all their thinking for them. I hate the outcome as well so I fight it in the capacity I have.

  Kid needs blood... absolutely the state should step in. Adult needs blood but refuses... that is on them. Hammer them on pedophilia, take away tax exempt status, ridicule them on doctrine (not the government but us) and try to enlighten as many as we can.

  The last thing I am doing is pussy-footing around my rights! Again, who do you trust to be the thought police? We are on our own to think, for better or worse. It absolutely cannot be the government who censors our thoughts and beliefs. When the government becomes the censors in this context we are in deep trouble.

  pbrow
• 

  Finkelstein

  You could correctly say that all religions are a devised fraud with their own inherent intent, that's going back all throughout human history.

  Its just that some have a publishing house operating at their core and some of its professed doctrines are devised to assist the proliferation of the literature it produces.
  
• 

  Heaven

  If religion does not allow people to be free, why should religion be allowed any freedoms?
  
• 

  Muddy Waters

  Pbrow, you keep saying people are on their own to be free or to be free thinkers (if I am understanding your post correctly),

  because you said, among other things: "At the end of the day, jdubs do not steal peoples lives. Individuals choose to follow a set of beliefs. Individuals choose to shun family members. Individuals choose to withhold blood related medical treatment."

  I believe that JWism DOES steal people's lives. It seems like you may be minimizing the effects of "mental indoctrination" (read: brain-washing) where to even question the WT leaders is a sin. And on top of that, you are constantly told NOT to rely on your own wisdom, that your heart is tricky, that doubts come from Satan, that "independent" or critical thinking is a sin....

  And add this as well: the consequences of leaving the group can mean complete ostracization and losing your whole family and all your friends, perhaps your inheritance too.... This is not benign stuff.

  Yes, it is more a psychological prison verses a literal, physical prison, but the effects are the same. It takes a great deal to wear down the mental barriers and levels of corresponding fears/guilts/shames, etc., to reach a point of allowing oneself to even question the authority.

  I do not think many people are "born Free".... I think freedom and its concept is something one learns, and begins to appreciate and respect, both for oneself and others, the more time goes on. And that with freedom, comes responsibility and accountability. It is not always a gift unto itself. The more it is appreciated, the more it is valued. And in JW-land, freedom is not a concept one learns about in a personal way. Even the concept of freedom is defined by their terms and is always presented with their religious bias and agenda of the WT.

  Apologies in advance if I misunderstood your post.

  - Muddy

  
  
• 

  Simon

  I was born-in and so are many others. My young brain was brainwashed before I knew of any other notion. Where was my choice?

  Same here. Aren't parents are responsible for the choices they make for their children?
• 

  fulltimestudent

  pbrow,

  There is some distance between personal belief and organised religion. You illustrated your argument with your mother's decision to shun you because of her (somewhat selfish) hope of a reward in the paradise (an unverifiable and likely false hope). Your mother's allegiance is to an organisation that keeps encouraging her to continue to shun you. If there was no such organisation, your mother would have to work out a balance between her personal belief and her natural love for you, and her natural (innate) love would likely win out over an imagined reward of life in a paradise.

  Why do you think the JW organisation (as did early Christianity and similar Jewish cults of the era, like the Essenes) try to isolate members from general society? Why do you imagine the WTS discourages people from seeking tertiary studies?

  There is some evidence that the WTS uses this dogma (shunning) as a means to emotionally blackmail members who may be thinking of leaving. (Many years ago an exjw who had access to the leadership clique in Australia, was told when he said he discussed leaving (by someone close to the branch committee), "Don't forget we still have your children." (These children were in their early 20s).

  There is no need to prosecute anyone for personal belief, unless that personal belief impinges on someone else's rights.
• 

  pbrow

  Hey muddy (think i messed up with the quotes feature...

  "I believe that JWism DOES steal people's lives. It seems like you may be minimizing the effects of "mental indoctrination" (read: brain-washing) where to even question the WT leaders is a sin. And on top of that, you are constantly told NOT to rely on your own wisdom, that your heart is tricky, that doubts come from Satan, that "independent" or critical thinking is a sin....
  

  I am not minimizing the point we both agree with... JWism does indeed steal peoples lives. But it does so by voluntary compliance by the individual dubs. You could not have said it better in the quote above. Free people.... Mothers, fathers, relatives and friends willingly subject themselves to this idiot indoctrination, do not question it and fall in line. Born ins are fucked from the beginning but here in 'Merica we have the right to believe some fucked up things and to teach our kids fucked up things. I also say this knowing that born ins (first hand experience) are at an extreme disadvantage, although the drop out rate of born ins is very high! The cost of having thought police is too high of a price to pay.

  And add this as well: the consequences of leaving the group can mean complete ostracization and losing your whole family and all your friends, perhaps your inheritance too.... This is not benign stuff.

  Not benign at all!!! I, like you and many others feel the pain of this every day! It is fucking riduculous! But again, as hard as it is to hear over and over again, MY/YOUR parents, MY/YOUR family and MY/YOUR friends are choosing to believe something that directly goes against the principles that they think they stand for. They are choosing to remain in ignorance. Are they being assisted, misdirected? Of course they are! But again, the price of personal freedom is so precious that I cannot stand by while it is proposed to be given to a governmental authority that would regulate who can think what.

  It takes a great deal to wear down the mental barriers and levels of corresponding fears/guilts/shames, etc., to reach a point of allowing oneself to even question the authority.

  Amen to that! That is why I think it ok when people disrupt meetings (peacefully), why I try to instill my skepticism in my children, why I do not allow family members to shun me. Breaking down my own mental barriers (although indoctrinated by my mother and congregation but still my own nonetheless) took me 30 years!! But I did it.

  I do not think many people are "born Free".... I think freedom and its concept is something one learns, and begins to appreciate and respect, both for oneself and others, the more time goes on. And that with freedom, comes responsibility and accountability. It is not always a gift unto itself. The more it is appreciated, the more it is valued. And in JW-land, freedom is not a concept one learns about in a personal way. Even the concept of freedom is defined by their terms and is always presented with their religious bias and agenda of the WT.

  Very direct. I could not agree more. Be awake, move forward and help as many people as you can. This life has many challenges and opportunities. Very few are easy. Life is difficult. This is why personal accountability is so important. No apologies needed Muddy... we are both fighting against this religion, an example of the horrible remnants of our ignorant past.

  pbrow
• 

  fulltimestudent

  pbrow: I am not minimizing the point we both agree with... JWism does indeed steal peoples lives. But it does so by voluntary compliance by the individual dubs.

  and

  Skedaddle... I too am a born in. My excuse of being brainwashed ended (legally) that is, when I turned 18. No doubt we were indoctrinated. I was so weak minded that it took me 12 more years to get out! That is on me. Who else was going to "do my thinking for me?"

  I admire your determination to be personally responsible for your own actions, pbrow. But your thinking is very black and white.

  Are all humans born with excellent reasoning abilities? My university study topic (this semester) has told me that humans are not good (naturally) at reasoning things out. So there's another opinion that is worth considering.

  In the congregations of JWs, that you my have associated with, were all the people in those congregations equal in thinking ability? I doubt that they were. My personal assessment is that in most of the congregations with which I was associated, more that 60% did not fully understand the reasons for their basic beliefs. More, why are most witnesses drawn from the lower socio-economic groups? These are the precise groups that may have lower reasoning abilities? Its curious that this was also case in early Christianity, at least in the opinion of Paul. Recall the verses:

  "...there were not many wise according to the flesh, ... 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise." (1 Corinthians 1:26,27)

  Paul attempts to turn that into a virtue, but within about 100 years, the church had turned to platonic thinking (the very thing Paul was likely speaking of) to solve some of their doctrinal hassles.

  Why does the GB insist that going to university, where you are more likely to be taught to question things, is likely to turn you away from faith? Come to that, why do fewer people with tertiary education become witnesses?

  If we are all responsible entirely for our own actions, why is financial fraud a crime, and spiritual fraud is not?

  I may be one of the few people who I could judge to be truly personally responsible for dropping my previous belief that there was no god, and becoming a witness. But, if we could sit and chat personally, you'd likely finish up agreeing that in my life at the time (and only 16/17 years of age), only basic education (very difficult for working class people to attend university when I was young) that emotional played an important role in my decision. Nonetheless, if there had been no churches peddling their fraudulent beliefs, especially a church that believed that all Christians were obligated to become footstep followers of Jesus, I may not have made the stupid mistake that I made.

  You can extend my last thought. Try this. If there had been no Jewish religion, then Jesus may not have become deluded and died at a relatively young age. Luke 21:32 indicates his personal belief that he lived in the generation that would see the Divine Kingdom established. We've all been there, haven't we?
• 

  pbrow

  Fulltime,

  Are all humans born with excellent reasoning abilities? My university study topic (this semester) has told me that humans are not good (naturally) at reasoning things out. So there's another opinion that is worth considering.

  No definitely not but I would argue that they cannot be forced into getting excellent reasoning abilities. They have to be taught them and regretfully the fact is, if they are raised dubs they will not be taught reasoning abilities. Thats the stone cold reality that dubs, mormons and scientologist born ins are faced with.

  In the congregations of JWs, that you my have associated with, were all the people in those congregations equal in thinking ability? I doubt that they were. My personal assessment is that in most of the congregations with which I was associated, more that 60% did not fully understand the reasons for their basic beliefs. More, why are most witnesses drawn from the lower socio-economic groups? These are the precise groups that may have lower reasoning abilities?

  No they certainly are not. Here is where we seem to have the disagreement though. In a free society they have the right to be content in their ignorance. They do not want to fully understand, they are fully satisfied not having a basic understanding of their beliefs. I cant make them understand. You cant make them understand. That is where my mother, my brother and lifelong friends WANT to be. Personal freedom to them is not more important than belonging to their church. I am ok with that. I will never stop fighting it but when I go to sleep at night I can accept that they have made their bed and are sleeping in it also.

  There have always been churches, most likely always will be, people want to give away their personal freedom. They want to follow. Yeah, your story is tough. I have thought long and hard about if I had not been raised a jdub maybe I would have joined and then forced my kids into the cult like my mother did to me. Thank Allah that didnt happen. I am human... I learned from my own experience and mistakes and am moving forward. At the end of the day, what other option do we have?

  Excellent conversation

  pbrow