<Dave, I appreciate your mild and respectful manner of conduct on this forum.>
Yadirf
Thank you for saying that. I have used less than mature communication techniques in forums before but I find that I can have a lot more interesting conversations with people I don't know by offering respect in my responses and comments. It's not near as much fun but sometimes points are better shared in a mature manner.
I have always had a kind of special ability to see things that most people miss and I tend read a little more between the lines. Several of the people I like and consider friends have swapped insults with you and as much as I would like to join in, I guess I don't see you in the same light. I love to make jokes and have fun as much as the next person but I try and remember to have a persona that comes a little closer to my favorite quote. That is "you can always judge the character of a person by the way they treat others that can do noting for them at all."
As far as your last question to me I will address that one first. No, I do not believe in the bible. Logic and reasoning keep me from doing that. I have numerous issues with the bible as mankind's book of rules as well as it being a less than accurate record of the history of man. After leaving the JW's I spent may years searching for answers. My conclusions I pretty much keep to myself in that I think each and every person has to look and define their own answers. I could write volumes on specific issues but to be honest, I have a lot more interesting things to do with my time.
I will give you a few things that keep me from believing the bible. First I find it hard to believe that all of humankind is doomed because a talking snake told a naked lady to eat a piece of fruit. In each and every test that the God of the bible gives his so-called children I ask myself if, I as a father would do that to my own children. The answer for the majority comes up a big NO. I do not need to test my kids to see weather they love me or not. I do not play games with their lives. The Adam and eve story has many holes in it. The story about Abraham and Isaac to me is a story that can only be described in a psychological terms as a test to reinforce someone's incredible insecurities. If it was at all true then God must be a very insecure being.
Those are just two of many bible stories that I have issues with. If you can put your name in the place of gods name and see if YOU would do the same things as he supposedly did you might start to cringe a little. I did. I also have taken the history of the earth according to the best archeological findings and I began to ask questions about God before the Adam and eve story. I look at the dinosaurs and have thought to myself, why would a loving caring God create such vicious creatures? What was his purpose? They roamed the land tearing each other to threads with horrific power and merciless execution. Combine that with the story of how God is supposed to dispose of those who don't kill their own children in an example of their love for him and you have my feeling about the bible and its content. It isn't logical or reasonable. If God is a perfect being then he should be both those things.
If there is a God, and that God is the one described in the bible, then I want noting to do with the psychopath. If he dose indeed exist and he takes acceptation in my thinking and wants to kill me for trying to be a loving and caring father and working hard to be the best person I can, then so be it. I just think that if there is a God, he is a lot more intelligent and a lot less arrogant then the one the bible describes. These examples are just the tip of the iceberg of the many issues I have.
As far as the JW's go in my thinking I did not have the luxury of having them come to my door and try and sell their wares to me. I grew up in the religion. I found that I was having to lie to myself constantly to give the answers to my parents about how I really felt about things in relation to what they wanted to hear and considered the appropriate answer. I had several questions as a young child that went unanswered or answered with the question "how do you think Jehovah feels about that"? I took that question as my only answer to life's questions for many years.
In high school I started secretly dating a beautiful young lady that just happened to be a Baptist. After secretly having her as my girlfriend for six or seven mounts the topic of religion came up. I told her that the JW's had the right religion and they could prove anything they say with the bible. She told me that they manufactured their own bible to fit their needs. I then repeated something that I had several times by not only brothers in the congregation but also by the circuit overseer. That statement was the New Worlds translation was considered to be the most accurate translation in relation to the original writings according to the Smithsonian Institution.
She took this comment to her youth minister and he along with her youth group wrote the Smithsonian and the reply they got back blew me away. According to them, the NWT was not only far from the closest translation but was considered one of the most inaccurate translations they had ever had the chance to examine. As I was taught, I just trusted in God and left their obvious lie to him. It wasn't until over ten years later that comment came back to kick me in the butt.
At age 27 I owned a successful art material company manufacturing and selling various products that I invented and also imported. I was also at that time considered one of the top illustrators and experts in several artistic disciplines. The Watchtower society not only bought some of my equipment but asked me to come back to Brooklyn and help their art and graphics departments out with both instruction and consulting. I did just that. I went back and was at first treated like royalty. I was put up in one of their nicer apartments and I even was given the same brother to escort me back and forth to the administration offices as Ray Franz. I met and walked with Ray for a little over a week. I was in JW heaven. The longer I was there the more shocked I was at what I saw. I have consulted for may companies in my courier but I have never been in a situation that I considered as poorly ran and organized as the watchtower society.
The hidden animosity between the people in the graphics, illustration and photography department was amazing. Everyone keep it to themselves but when they were told I was there to find problems and try and correct them they let it all out. The feeling of superiority by some individuals was mind boggling. The hiding of true feelings was like listening to confessions of mentally abused prisoners. I would ask the people why they didn't express their concerns about their problems and they all said the same thing. So and So is an elder and he is in charge of this and that and it is considered improper to complain. Those who were in charge of different departments were not only inept for their positions but used their positions to gain special considerations and cause misery in may peoples lives.
Out side of the art department I learned about many things that simply broke my heart. From Governing body members living like kings to one "room mate" of one of the governing body being kicked out for getting newly arrived brothers drunk in his room and sodomizing them. The unsuspecting and gullible young brothers were then told they would have to leave Bethel in shame and be disfellowshipped for turning him in. I was told this by the new room mate of that particular governing body member who I went to visit because he use to go to the same congregation I did. I was sick.
Toward the end of my visit I was taken up to the administration office one floor above the art department. I was escorted into a locked room that was what some called a secret library. Their intention was to use my graphic skills for possibly helping them better miniaturize some of their publications for smuggling into other countries as well as an art project I was helping another brother on. I was asked not to talk to anyone about what I saw in that library and for the most part I have not. I made that promise and I have tried to keep it. All I am comfortable telling you is what the JW's teach and what they began their religion with are so far apart you wouldn't recognize the two standing right next to each other.
The next day after telling the truth about what I thought about the problems between the different departments where, I was told that my recommendations were impossible to comply with because of the positions the department heads held. So in my opinion my work and my "asked for" opinions were a total waste of time. I was greeted at the airport like visiting royalty and I was driven back to the airport by a mechanic from the societies motor pool. I don't think I met one single person there that was truly happy. I saw lies, deceit, back stabbing, many attempts to hide things that were accepted but frowned upon. Things that if happened in normal society would end up with several people in jail.
It was less than a month later I left not only the religion but my family and friends I had for the majority of my life.
So in response to me having the joy of first finding out what the JW's teach about love and joy. No. I never experienced that.
I respect anyone's belief in the aspect that I respect their right to have them. I am a member of no religion but consider myself a very spiritual person. I don't know if there is a God or not but if there is I would hope he judges me by my heart instead of my signing up with any group. If not, then that's life. To be honest I don't really believe in God. But I do think that believing or not believing is not important. Quoting scriptures to me to make a point does noting in trying to enlighten me in any respect. The do un to others and be nice teachings I find in the bible I also find in many of the religions I have had the chance to look into. But all the rest of the stories and God fearing tests and games that are written about I just can't buy.
I hope this gives you a little idea where I am coming from. I appreciate your style in corresponding with me and I hope we can continue in this manner.
Bite me,
Dave
Sorry about the "bite me", Iv been way to serious in this post and I just needed to end it in a manner that is a little more fun and indicative to this forum. I hate all this serious shit.
