DAVE QUOTE: but by just a little use of basic reading skills and the
ability to put two and two together someone could quickly figure out
what it's all about.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: Then there isn't much of a reason for not callin’ it what it actually is, is there? … a Discussion Forum for ex-JWs to talk about their former religion.
Dave Response: Since you realize that and continue to post here you must then consider yourself an exJW or a very confused back sliding JW. Which is it?
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DAVE QUOTE: I'm sure you are more than familiar of this technique, you
have used it yourself many times.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: That's not true.
Dave Response: That's it? That's your whole entire argument? I spent 22
years going door to door and was accompanied by hundreds of different
JW's in that amount of time. The presentations and programed response to the question "What is your purpose for coming to my door" was the same at all times. It must have escaped your mind that this forum is full of people that at one time were involved in the door to door service and that we do have a clue about what was said. Are you telling me that I seem to have forgotten 22 years of my life? Come on now, I think you are a lot smarter than that, I know I am.
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DAVE QUOTE: On a daily basis JW's knock on peoples doors stating their
intention is for people to just simply study "their own "bible.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: I've never once known that to be the case. I've never been out in the service going door to door without having a Bible study aid of one sort or another to offer the householder. If the person was favorable to a Bible study, the particular study aid was acknowledged up front. There was no deception attached to it whatsoever.
Dave Response: I guess your congregation had their own way of doing
things then. If they would have gone by the many demonstrations directed by the society in their "service meetings" they would have used the same deceptive techniques that were taught to all JW's. Since I have not physically been to your particular kingdom hall I guess I can't say you are wrong. My logic and experience would tend to make me think you are either not being honest with yourself or are indeed under a delusion and in self denial. There is another option I could consider in that your congregation did in fact do things different then the hundreds of other JW congregations, but according to their claims of the same exact thing being taught throughout the world in their religion I guess that blows that option out of the water.
I didn't mention the fact that "bible study aids" were or were not kept
in your brief case. I too had such "aids". You are manipulating and side stepping the direct issue. You are responding in the same manner I stated is used in the field service.
That is, using a programed response to side step that would knowingly have a negative reaction with the purpose to entice by creative deception. The same goes for this site and the way it is set up with a "stated reason" as opposed to the "actual reason". The stated reason is true but, the actual reason is intended.
The stated reason given when asked why they are at the persons door is to "encourage people to read their bibles", the actual reason is to "add more members into the religion". The exact words "we are here to get you to join our religion" are not used but that is in fact, the true reason. It's word manipulation I am talking about in my post to you. In the advertising world that technique is called "the hook". You hook them and then you sell them.
The whole reason for me making this post is to agree with you that it is the technique Simon is using. It is also the technique the JW's use. So if they can do it so can he. It's a very simple statement and a very
simple concept.
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DAVE QUOTE: I had such a presentation given to me a few weeks ago and
listened to the same programed response I once use many years ago. In
reality the purpose is to get people to have a bible study using
creatively worded study aids so that the house holder will at some time
become a JW. If you deny that than you are simply not being honest with yourself.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: Well of course the object is to help the householder to become a JW … we're obviously not there to teach them the art of sitting in a pew at the local Baptist Church, doing essentially nothing.
Dave Response: You obviously have been to a Baptist church meeting to be able to make that statement. I guess it's all in your definition of the word "nothing". I think they try and teach and instruct their members in their version of what they consider to be the truth about god. It is no different than the JW's. If you define their actions as "noting" you must equate what the JW's do as the same. In that context I must agree with you in relation to my feelings about the whole god thing. But if that is what gets the up in the morning and puts a smile on their face then I say more power too them.
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DAVE QUOTE: The JW's realize that if they stated up front that they
believed that the house holder was going to die along with their
children unless they become a JW they would get anywhere at all. The
very first introduction to the religion for most people is based on
deceptive word manipulation.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: That's not the least bit true. Jehovah’s Witnesses have never been selective with regards to which Watchtower or Awake magazine that they place with the public. Many, many publications that have contained the very thing you bring up has gone into the publics hands. There’s nothing secretive about those issues at all.
Dave Response: You are missing or ignoring the point I am making. I will make that point again and put in caps so you don't miss it. WHEN ASKED BY A HOUSE HOLDER WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THEIR VISIT IS THE ANSWER IS "TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO READ AND STUDY 'THEIR BIBLES'". That statement as you have agreed is misleading and not the true reason for the visit. You deny that statement is made. I say that it is. To continue an argument on this is useless with you. You forget I was a JW and I not only was instructed to say make that statement but have also heard may other JW's make the same exact statement. Further arguments on "you said, I said" is pointless. You believe what you want and I will hold to the reality of my own experience in the matter.
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DAVE QUOTE: Simon is just using the same technique of specific word and
thought manipulation to entice an interest and then later explain the
real intention, that's it.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: As I've demonstrated, that's not true.
Dave Response: Demonstrated? I have seen no demonstration or a cut and
paste quote to back up your statement. What I have seen is your denial
of my statement. Just because you say it isn't true doesn't sway my
thinking based on my own experience as a JW in the slightest. The
difference as I see it is I make statements based on my own experience.
You make them on yours. For both experiences to be different brings into the question does the religion teach different things to different
congregations as they say they do not, or is one of us not being honest
with ourselves.
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DAVE QUOTE: If you consider it deceptive then maybe you should look at
what you say and what you really mean the next time you begin your
presentation out in service.
YADIRF QUOTE Response: Presently, and as a matter of fact for quite some time now, I am not engaging in the “service”. However, if I were so engaged there would be no necessity for any changes in “what I say and what I really mean”.
DAVE Response: I would like to hear your reasons for not going out in
service. I know they may be personal ones and if so please excuse me for asking. I see you as a thinker and possessing a passion for your
thoughts and comments on this board. I would never compare you to "YOU
KNOW" but it seems that both of you have your issues with the watchtower organization. It is my thought and I may be wrong, you seem to be at a point in your thinking that you may have some doubts about the religion. What keeps you holding on to their mind set is the question that all who have left the region ask them selves at one time. That is "If the JW's are wrong, then who or what is right"? That in my opinion is the question that is unanswerable by any religion or organized group of individuals. In my "personal" thinking none of them are all right and none of them are all wrong. They are simply a
vehicle for a large population of humans to use to help them get from
birth to death. To expand on my thought would take many pages and more
time than I have right now to expand on it. If I thought it would help youin any way or that you were the slightest bit interested in my personalthoughts I would think the time to write them down. I don't see that as
the case so I will not waste my time.
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DAVE QUOTE: got me out of the JW religion
YADIRF QUOTE Response: Other than justifying deception, into what?
DAVE Response: Into a life that makes me and my son's happy. To explain
to you what I have learned and what makes me tick would take hours. I am
not here to convert anyone into my way of thinking but mainly to meet
and maybe gain a few friends with others that have
experienced similar life situations as I. Being an exJW use to be a very
lonely place to be in life, until the internet came along. I have made
several friend through this medium and I enjoy their thoughts and
opinions. I even enjoy reading yours. I have a lot easier time
understanding where the members of this board have come from because I
came from the same place. It makes making friends for a fairly shy
person like myself a little easier. I am not interested in changing your
mind but only conversing with you on a subject that I have experience
with. I may not agree with your thoughts and beliefs but I do admire
your conviction in them. I still have family in the religion and even
though I rarely see them I still have a relative love for them. I do not hate the JW's I just do not like their approach to life and the manipulation by their leaders. Their leaders have interpreted a religious book that keeps my family in fear
of associating with me. I think that is extremely wrong, but I respect
my families thoughts and beliefs in regard to the religion. They of
course do not respect mine, they are taught not to. That's a shame.
YADIRF QUOTE: who still says that Simon is deserving of 30 lashes.
DAVE Response: 30? hell, give the boy 60, he would probably love it!
Dave
