Did God know adam and eve would sin?

by gavindlt 58 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Drearyweather

  I'm not sure that's a good analogy. Putting aside that God created the hotel, all the rooms, and the content of each room, if He found Himself on the outside of this "room", how does He know its the right room to look into, or even pass by? Who or what is labeling the rooms for God?

  So are you saying that God is like an author who already knows what happens to each character of the story? If yes, where does the concept of free will come in?

  Whatever state that was, why is it "perfect" and not just "very good"?

  Maybe because someone with sin can be "very good", but not perfect?
  
  
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  mikeflood

  Well guys, take it to the next level then, why the angels, and of course the Devil, being made perfect, choose wickedness....?

  I know, they say because of the their will, but my question is, if you're absolutely perfect and absolutely in the good side, not even ever are you gonna be tempted about going to the dark side.
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  Drearyweather

  if you're absolutely perfect and absolutely in the good side, not even ever are you gonna be tempted about going to the dark side.

  Angels are not absolutely perfect. If you are a created being - then you can be perfect only in a relative sense.
  
  
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  Leathercrop

  Same goes for everyone God created, angels etc

  He creates, they choose.
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  blondie

  I was told by LDS (known by some as Mormons) that Adam and Eve were given 2 conflicting laws, to be fruitful and multiply and then not be able to get that knowledge on how to procreate by eating the fruit. I have been told that their god never meant people to live forever on earth, it was only a testing ground of 2/3 of the angels in heaven. Each child LDS has opens the opportunity for that angel to be born in that child to be tested. Faithful, then back to heaven with rewards (that's another post) and the others to "hell." So in order to obey their god, they had to break one of those laws. Damned if they did, damned if they didn't.
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  MeanMrMustard

  So are you saying that God is like an author who already knows what happens to each character of the story?

  More than that. I'm saying God knows everything that is and everything that could have been. Not just character archs in a story, but every piece of possible information, completely. He literally knows the ending from the beginning.
  

  If yes, where does the concept of free will come in?

  Knowledge of your choice, before you make the choice, doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.
  
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  Leathercrop

  So are you saying that God is like an author who already knows what happens to each character of the story?

  More than that. I'm saying God knows everything that is and everything that could have been. Not just character archs in a story, but every piece of possible information, completely. He literally knows the ending from the beginning

  Mr mustard

  I'm being completely simplistic here, but it seems that everything, down to notions and concepts, resemble that quantum physics idea that everything is a wave with all potentials inherent in it...until something causes that wave to take form as a particle.

  So God creates someone, knowing ALL their possible potentials of being beforehand, but it's the actual someone that decides which potential will be fulfilled.
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  MeanMrMustard

  @Leathercrop:

  So God creates someone, knowing ALL their possible potentials of being beforehand, but it's the actual someone that decides which potential will be fulfilled.

  The idea is that God also knows all the possibilities of all possible universes - Christian apologists call it "middle knowledge". It's part of Him knowing "all things". If you were given a choice between a slice of chocolate cake or carrot cake, He knows what you will pick, but also what you might pick in different circumstances. But you are still the one cchoosing.The knowledge of what you will choose doesn't mean the choice is removed from you.
  

  I'm not sure how this maps onto quantum physics. I wouldn't go so far as to say God knows the position in momentum of all particles. I don't see a concept like superposition having any effect on God's knowledge. That is, if particles (or larger objects) can be in a superposition state, then that's just the way the universe works. In this case God would know and understand the superpositional state, as well as know when and how it would fall out of that state. Again, I don't know if this has any bearing on this topic though.
  
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  Leathercrop

  I'm not sure how this maps onto quantum physics. I wouldn't go so far as to say God knows the position in momentum of all particles. I don't see a concept like superposition having any effect on God's knowledge. That is, if particles (or larger objects) can be in a superposition state, then that's just the way the universe works. In this case God would know and understand the superpositional state, as well as know when and how it would fall out of that state. Again, I don't know if this has any bearing on this topic though

  Mr mustard

  Thx for responding, I think you explained the concept better than I did hehe

  I seem to observe something similar with potentials for a human being. As a baby, a parent knows it can be many things when it grows up. The parent may want their baby to grow up to be great, but there's the possibility that they may turn into a crackhead too. Perhaps this is the extent to which God 'knows' what someone will be and do. He knows all the possible potentials and in this sense he would have 'known' that Adam and Eve could/would sin.

  I know I'm super simplifying it but there seems to be a link or relation between the micro and macro level of things.
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  peacefulpete

  I see I made a rather glaring blunder. The Genesis Eden/tree story was J not P. Later intertestamental Zadokite (priestly) obsession with this story led to many expansions and mystical connections.