The Lords prayer ;Our Father prayer...."Let your name be sanctified " from Jesus.

by smiddy3 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • slimboyfat

    We don’t have the autographs. The contention that “Lord” appeared in the autographs is also, strictly speaking, an assertion that cannot be proved.

    What we have are later copies of the New Testament that use shortened forms of “Lord”, and fragments of the Septuagint, contemporary with the composition of the New Testament, which use various forms of the divine name YHWH or Yaho.

  • frozen2018

    A little off topic, but I've wondered about this. It's been a long time since I set foot in a kingdom hall, but if I recall correctly a male witness would sometimes be asked to say a prayer. What would happen if the prayer sayer said something like this, "I would like all to join me in saying the Lord's Prayer. Our Father...." Would the audience join in? Would they know the prayer? Would there be confusion? I've attended other church services, mostly funerals, and have heard the Lord's Prayer said several times. Has it ever been used in a kingdom hall? If not, why not?

  • Steel

    The more i learn about this subject , I believe the term lord is suppose to be used because there is not a real distinction between god and Jesus. It’s kind of the theme of the book of Acts.

    Plus the book of acts is almost devoted to “ the name of Jesus”.

    Plus the Tetragrammaton is often requoted and applied to Jesus in the New Testament.

    Also the fact there is no copy of the New Testament containing the Tetragrammaton.

  • Steel

    The way I have been explained the whole “name of god” quotes , it is an expression of calling on the power or essences of what god is.

    An angel with the name of the lord in him.

    The temple in the Old Testament was called the place where name of the lord lays. Even the arc of the convanent is said to have the name of the lord within in.

    Its not saying a magical word like Jehovah .

  • Steel

    Man i wish I knew how to quote.

    Jan, you are right. Jews just say “ the Hashem” which means the name when they see the Tetragrammaton in writing.

    There is no evidence they did anything different in bible times.

  • peacefulpete

    Interestingly, Dr H.J. Schonfield commented upon the Lord's Prayer by putting it in historical context. According to his research each sect or schism of Jews had an identifying unique shema or prayer repeated at gatherings. The author of the Lukan version specifically refers to how the followers of J the Baptist used a specific prayer among themselves and the speaker now asks Jesus for such a shema prayer.

  • peacefulpete

    As far as the original thread question, the intention of the author is clearly not to endorse the use of the Tetragrammaton or he would have done it here. "Father hallowed by thy name YHWH" or even "YHWH hallowed be thy name". All the elements of the prayer are in fact quite Jewish and familiar within Jewish liturgy of the time and until today. On the Jewish Encyclopedia page regarding the Lords prayer provides many parallels with examples. For instance the Kaddish prayer:

    "May His great name be hallowed in the world which He created, according to His will, and may He establish His Kingdom . . . speedily and at a near time".... etc

    There is no suggestion here that usage of the Tetragrammaton was being endorsed, but rather the simpler meaning of honoring the God of Israel by not bring reproach.

    And as for the LXX and its usage of the tetragrammaton, there is no simple answer. There appearin early LXX copies many variants of the name which were themselves glosses or conjunctions of the YHWH with other words which strongly suggests that a concept of a singular name was not current, rather God had many names, some of which drew from the YHWH name form in some manner. In later copies of the LXX the name and all its variants were fairly consistently replaced with Kyrios "Lord" so just exactly what the NT writers saw in their copies, no one knows. No one knows how they would have regarded the particular version of the name if it was there. Would they see the names as the translators of the LXX did, as one of many names? There is no surviving example of a NT manuscript that uses the Tetragrammaton, no single NT quote wherein an early Christian writer uses the name indicating it's presence. So clever arguments aside there is no basis for assuming it was there. It simply would not have been an issue if they had or hadn't used some variant of it or uses some other word.

  • Phizzy

    Thank you PP, for a very good Post, it is not something I have not thought about before, but it is very doubtful that the N.T writers would have consulted what would have been very old MS of the Septuagint, even in their time, and yet it is clear that the Septuagint is the version they quote from most times. ( there is evidence of other influences on their writing, in one or two places).

    But, the practice was to discard old MS, use the newest, hence the older MS have been found placed in "storage" out of respect for them, but at the time of placement they were redundant.

    As you say though, if YHWH were there in what they read, or perhaps they wrote it too, it would not have been an issue, as I said too in an earlier Post.

    In view of your Post above, there is more doubt that it ever was there.

  • slimboyfat

    Interesting that you mention the book of Acts, because Acts clearly distinguishes between Jehovah and the Lord Jesus, nowhere clearer than Acts 2:34ff

    For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

    Jehovah is God and Jesus is Lord.

    Otherwise you have “the Lord said to my Lord” which doesn’t make much sense.

  • smiddy3

    Is that a deliberate ploy of you slimboyfat to try and confuse the issue ? Change tactic away from the subject matter ,the OP ?

    I`m disappointed in you slim ,I couldn`t agree with you more that the two beings Yahweh and Yesus are two seperate identities ,one is the Almighty and the other is his Lord who he has appointed as king to rule for a thousand years according to the bible ....Philippians chapter 2.

    That`s an old trick that the WT / JW`s often employ.

    The opening post has to do with the name Jehovah being in the Christian greek Scriptures or not .

    Not weather Jehovah and Jesus are the same being or not .

    You havent been honest here.

    The New Testament ,Christian Greek Scriptures are all about bearing witness about Jesus Christ and after his time of bringing back people under his Kingdom will he then turn it back over to his father, Jehovah , after a thousand years when his rule is finished.

    But in the meantime Phil.2:9-11 which I`m sure your fully aware of "God gave Jesus a name that is above every other name { including the name jehovah } 10,so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground 11 And every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God the Father"

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