Reasons for concluding that Watchtower is in (serious) financial trouble

by slimboyfat 151 Replies latest members private

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  slimboyfat

  Okay how much did they make from the sale of Brooklyn property, do we have firm figures on that?

  Although the land is cheaper at Warwick, presumably it wasn't free. How much did that cost, and the planning, architects, materials? Was there clean up costs from waste? All that needs to be set against the profit they made from Brooklyn.

  I guess I should also define what I'd consider serious financial trouble.

  Say they have $4 billion in reasonably liquid assets now.

  Say they are spending $1 billion a year on running costs, but only receiving $500 million a year in donations. I'd call that serious financial difficulty. Maybe that wouldn't meet others' definition of crisis, but it would meet mine. Because in that scenario, although they've got $4 billion on hand at the moment, if Armageddon doesn't come within a decade they're bust.
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  sparky1

  I agree with Lisa. My own personal opinion is that they have taken the money from the sale of the Brooklyn property and the 'Congregation Cash Grab' and created some sort of self sustaining 'endowment' fund under another 'dummy corporation'. This fund is perhaps identified with the I.R.S. as some sort of 'education endowment' such as Universities have here in the US and the proceeds are 'gifted' or donated back to the 'Mother' corporation. The money is probably invested in callable C.D.'s and other safe, liquid financial vehicles and provides them with a minimum of cash flow to supplement donations and keep their income stream mostly consistent. Lisa is right. I think they lied about their financial position in order to 'guilt' the flock into more cash contributions. They lie about their expenses at assemblies and this always brings in more cash. Perhaps since this ploy works so well, they have decided to 'up their game' and lie on a grander scale and watch the cash roll in.

  That being said, Slimboy is also correct. Something is definitely lacking on the personal contributions front. The 'average' witness is just plain 'tapped out'. Contributing for the literature, contributing at the local congregational level, contributing to the Worldwide Work, contributing at assemblies twice a year, contributing to the Circuit Overseer, paying for your own gas and vehicle maintenance, buying tablets for the meetings (imagine the expense for a family of four) and on and on. So yes, I agree that they are in financial trouble and are putting 'stop gap' financial plans in place to slow down the hemorrhaging. Just my 'two cents'.
  
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  stuckinarut2

  Excellent post. Great reasoning.

  You forgot one vital point however... You see, Jehovah is in control of all matters, and will keep ensuring the society is kept afloat. After all, he IS the creator of the universe.

  (sarcasm alert by the way)
  
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  slimboyfat

  Okay good point. Say they have gathered around $4 billion they can invest for an annual return. Say they get 5% on that investment. That would give them an extra $200 million a year, which is still a $300 million deficit each year, which could only be met by drawing down the principal at the same time. Drawing down would reduce the income from investment in subsequent years. It might give them 15 years instead of 10. I think crediting them with $4 billion may be generous, and a deficit in the region of $300 million is plausible. Have we got any firm figures on the amount of money they made from Brooklyn sales?

  Plus I have to say that Stephen Lett implied the money was not being invested, it was being used for running costs. He may be lying, but the rapidity and depth of their cutbacks says otherwise.

  Plus Lett didn't just say that expenses are exceeding donations. He said that there is "much more money going out than there is coming in". I would tend to interpret that as income from all sources, investments included.
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  moreconfusedthanever

  We were just discussing this the other night. If you discourage education and therefore lead your flock into low paying jobs where they barely make ends meet, then you are not going to get much in the way of donations.
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  waton

  together with the Circuit Overseer history, this is the best read on this forum. thanks Sbf & all.

  I think wt got spooked twice, 1) by the tax authorities' decision that forced them not to sell religious books at a profit any more, and 2) financial meltdowns. They decided this is not going to happen to them again, and like a dieting body, put on fat, created a sequestered invisible core reserve, and will try to pull in money from the members in a hard and merciless way. I see this even in their disaster aka GT preparations staged for the members.

  PS: At one time, pre 1975, jws were more believing than the leadership, that is gone. There is deep scepticism about wt doctrines, and willingness to commit financially, If wt is hoarding, so are the members.
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  Magnum

  I agree. There's been so much emphasis on money the last few years that there must be an issue. The initial fanfare and then abrupt halt to construction, Lett's money begging, the congregation money grab, the ceasing of financial support for missionaries - all that indicates that something is up. Either they're hurting for money or they know know their future doesn't look good, so they're preparing to be self-sufficient.
  
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  sparky1

  In the '90's, even though I was well into my fade, I still contributed. (Family reasons). I religiously gave $50.00 a month to the local congregation and $50.00 a month to the Worldwide Work. For the sake of argument, lets say that only 3,000,000 Witnesses are able to make a similar cash contribution directly to the Society. 3,000,000 x $50.00 x 12 = $1,800,000,000.00! That's a lot of Tax Free cash not including revenue from assemblies, investments, willed money and property, etc., etc.. Couple that with the downsizing over the last few years and a smart investor could build up quite a 'War Chest'. Do I think contributions are decreasing? Absolutely ! That leads me to believe that the Governing Body is lying about the religions financial situation in order to build up a 'financial war chest' as a hedge against a major financial downturn in their future.
  
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  jwfacts

  Great post. From the financial report lodged in Australia a few years ago, donations averaged about $200 per publisher. That is an incredibly small percentage of the average Australian wage, and shows how cheap JWs are. Yet Australia is likely to have one of the highest average donation amount, as we have one of the highest paid low to middle class, which is the basis for the religion. I would expect few countries average over $100/year and it would be far less in the developing countries where the growth is occurring.
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  Brokeback Watchtower

  When I was a JW I used to give a contribution once in a great while usually $50 a pop. Probably 200 -300 a year but I think if you average it out over my entire stint with the Jdubs probably around $75 average every year.

  I didn't have that much money because of all the council not to accumulate riches while waiting for armeggedon, my exwife says she never gave any money ever.