"Wise Men," or Duped Men?

by Schizm 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    dupe defined: 2. a person who functions as the tool of another person or power.

    the scene in the image below is a most popular one during the month of december. however, few people realize that those men were actual dupes of Satan himself. Satan, rather than God, was unquestionably the source of the "star" that they saw. Satan had hoped to use these men in accomplishing the death of the Messiah while yet a boy, by means of bringing them into contact with jealous King Herod. it was due to their visit to Jerusalem that Herod learned that there was a person destined to become king who had been born. Herod then attempted to destroy the child, but failed. yet a multitude of children wound up being slaughtered because of this so-called "wondrous star". I wonder how many people would still want this "star" adorning the top of their Christmas Tree if they only knew the truth about it? but just as "the three wise men" were in the dark regarding the true source of the "star" such is also the case with people today. -- Skiz.

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956

    Where did you get that quote, the Watchtower? Christians can lay claim to many more lives than were lost as a result of what these "wise men" did. Perhaps they thought a little bit of bloodshed could save a lot of bloodshed later?? Even the god of the dubs is a bloody jealous god. For all the talk of forgiveness and love, that is not shown by their actions. Lying and deceit are all too common in order to further their agenda. They call it theocratic warfare. The only difference between the witlesses and other christian denominations is, the others will actually go and fight a war. The dubs are more what you might call passive agressive. And, if you took your basic psych 101 you will know just how dangerous that type of thinking is.

    No, christians have no stranglehold on this type of bloody history, there are many others, including patriarchal paganism. But you will note one theme in common..... religion.

    The other blood on the hands of the society is for the thousands that have lost their lives because of their ever changing teachings. Those in my age bracket will remember the persecutions in Malawi when the society told the rank and file in that country not to buy the political cards. Thousands were driven from their homes, beaten, raped, and killed. At the VERY same time, halfway across the world in Mexico, the society told the rank and file it was all right to buy the political card.

    We won't even get into the blood issue. Remember when they wouldn't let you have blood derivitives that could save children from RH factor? Then later it became a matter of conscious. We all know what that means, the ones that came before that died as a result, oh well... as of now there is new light. They don't even apologize for it!

    Another case in point, sexual abuse by elders and others in congregations all over the world where no one will listen to the victims who are children and women because they will take the word of the brother everytime. Because they think that there should be two witnesses to the crime. Well if you know anything about rape, it is an act of power over the vulnerable. This crime is done in secret, there will never be witnesses to the act unless someone stumbles upon it accidently. The victims, in the case of the thousands of cases currently being investigated and litigated, are then disfellowshipped in order to keep them from warning others about the perpetraters. And, due to the society's policies, police departments are kept out of it, the matter is hushed up and covered over. This is called aiding and abetting, where I come from.

    Much better case for "duped," don't you think?

    Gretchen

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    Where did you get that quote, the Watchtower?

    that was not a quote. they were my very own words.

    BTW, since you obviously have a burning desire to vent your feelings about the many things that you brought up, why not start your own thread dealing with those topics, instead of trying to convert the topic here into one that suits your agenda. you said very little that has to do with the subject of THIS topic. I request that you not take advantage of the topic that I posted simply for the purpose of using it as a platform to 'preach' your own favorite message.

    Skiz

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956

    ooooh, maybe I hijacked the thread!!! -----so sorry-----

    I submit, your cult are the ones that are duped for the reasons listed above and it has everything to do with the topic.

    Gretchen

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Skiz

    Should I replace the star on my tree with a fairy??

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    ooooh, maybe I hijacked the thread!!! -----so sorry-----

    I submit, your cult are the ones that are duped for the reasons listed above and it has everything to do with the topic.

    Gretchen

    you're being less than truthful.

    the title of this topic is: "Wise Men," or Duped Men?

    if that title isn't plain enough for you to see what the subject is about, then my initial comments should have made it ever so plain.

    if you persist in hijacking my thread you will be reported to Simon. you've obviously entered my thread for no other purpose than to be antagonistic, and Simon has repeatedly requested that persons not be that way. do you need to hear from him directly? I think that can be arranged if necessary.

    Skiz

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I personally don't agree with the WT (and your) interpretation. There is nothing in the text that indicates that Satan was the source of the star. I would not confuse the star's purpose and function with King Herod's reaction to it. They're not the same thing. Herod and the Magi understood what the star meant because they knew the symbol of the Messiah was a star. The Magi chose an honorable reaction to the star while Herod's reaction was despicable. The "star" was a Messianic symbol because in the Near East stars signified kings, as Is. 14:12 applies the epithet "Daystar, son of Dawn" to the king of Tyre. The prophecy of Balaam in Numbers 24:17 dominated Messianic expectations for centuries before Jesus' birth: "I behold him--but not close at hand; a star from Jacob takes the leadership, a sceptre arises from Israel." The star motif was elaborated in intertestimental writings, including the Testament of Judah (second century BC) and the Dead Sea Scrolls (first century BC):

    Testament of Judah 24:1-6 (which also alludes Joel 2:28-29 and Isaiah 11:1-5)

    And after this there shall arise for you a star from Jacob in peace. And a man shall arise from my posterity like the sun of righteousness, walking with the sons of men in gentleness and righteousness, and in him will be found no sin. And the heavens will be opened upon him to pour out the spirit as a blessing of the holy Father. And he will pour out the spirit of grace on you. This is the shoot of God most high; this is the fountain of life of all humanity. Then he will illumine the scepter of my kingdom, and from your root will arise the shoot, and through it will arise the rod of righteousness for the nations, to judge and to save all that call on the Lord.

    The War Scroll 11:4-9, Dead Sea Scrolls (originally composed in the second century BC)

    Yours is the battle! From You comes the power; the battle is not ours. Not our might nor the strength of our hands display valor; as You declared to us in former times, A star has journeyed from Jacob, a scepter has arisen from Israel; and he shall crush the temples of Moab and overturn all the sons of Seth. And he shall rule from Jacob and shall cause the survivors of the city to perish. And the enemy shall become a conquered land and Israel shall display its valor. And by the hand of your Messiahs, the seers of things ordained, You have announced to us the times of the battles of Your hands, in which You will be glorified.

    Damascus Document 7:18-21, Dead Sea Scrolls (also alluding Amos 9:11)

    And the star is the seeker of the Law who came to Damascus, because it was written A star has came forth out of Jacob and a scepter has risen out of Israel. The scepter stands for the prince of the congregation. At his coming he shall break down all the sons of Sheth.

    The 'prince of the congregation' seems to be have been a common shorthand indicating one of the two Messiahs that the sect at Qumran expected, the war leader who is sometimes called the 'Messiah of David' or the 'Messiah of Israel'. In any case, Jews expecting the coming of the Messiah looked in the heavens for a celestial sign, like the miraculous star. This might underlie the disciples' question to Jesus in Matt. and Lk. of what sign there would be of his coming. As it turned out, a comet appeared in the sky in AD 66 which was widely interpreted by Jews to signal the arrival of the Messiah. It was this event that provided much of the impetus of the Jewish revolt that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (cf. Josephus). Even the Roman historian Suetonius recorded the impact of these Messianic expectations in the Jewish revolt (Vespasian 4,5 ). And in Revelation 22:16, Jesus himself uses this language to refer to his own future coming: "I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star." (cf. also Rev. 2:27-28, which calls Jesus "the Morning Star" and the one with "an iron sceptre," an obvious allusion to Num. 24:17) This expectation continued in Jewish circles in the second century AD; the next messianic figure was Simon surnamed bar-Kochba (="star"), and the Star of David continues as a symbol of hope in Judaism to this day. The star that heralds Jesus' birth in the Matt. narrative thus is a miraculous sign that the Messiah has arrived. Note also how the wording has slightly changed regarding the Star; in the original prophecy we read of a "star from Jacob" then that becomes a "star rising from Jacob" in the Testament of Judah and finally a "star has journeyed from Jacob" in the Dead Sea Scrolls. These embellishments are just what we find in the Matt. text; in 2:2 the Magi say "we saw his star as it rose" and in 2:10 "the star journeyed and halted over the place where the child was".

    Moreover I know of no early Christian commentary on the Star of Bethlehem that viewed it as evil or as a Satanic plot. Quite different is the impression. The earliest reference to the star that I could find is that of Ignatius in his epistle to the Ephesians, written A.D. 115-117, and indeed he had the exact opposite view -- that the star was sent by God to announce the secret of the Messiah's birth to Satan and his world:

    Ignatius, Ephesians 18:2-19:-2

    "Jesus the Christ was conceived by Mary according to God's plan, both of the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. He was born and was baptized in order that by his suffering he might clense the water. Now the virginity of Mary and her giving birth were hidden from the ruler of this age [e.g. Satan the Devil]....How, then, were they revealed to the ages? A star shone forth in heaven brighter than all the stars; its light was indescribable and its strangeness caused amazement. All the rest of the constellations, together with the sun and moon, formed a chorus around this star, yet the star itself far outshone them all, and there was perplexity about the origin of this strange phenomenon which was so unlike the others....As a result, things were thrown into ferment because the abolition of death was being carried out."

    For Ignatius, the star was God's way of announcing to Satan that his time was up -- death was about to be vanquished. This of course is Ignatius' own interpretation, but it still shows that the WT interpretation of the star is quite different from what early Christians thought.

    Leolaia

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    See also the Messianic use of the Greek word anatolè, meaning the rising of a star, in Luke 1:78f, against the Septuagint background where this astronomical metaphor often replaces a vegetal one (in Jeremiah 23:5 for instance, where the same anatolè translates the Hebrew çèmah, "growing", "sprout", "germ" or "branch").

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    Leolaia & Narkissos:

    thank you both for your entries. but don't you think it rather strange that the only ones who saw the "star" were the Magi? the shepherds learned of the Messiah's birth, not by having seen a miraculous star, but from having it announced to them by the angels. what do you think about this?

    Skiz

  • Sargon
    Sargon

    Most Christian symbols carry an aura of death.

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