JW elders stumped by Watchtower Publications

by Roger Kirkpatrick 25 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Roger Kirkpatrick
    Roger Kirkpatrick

    I was approached by two Jehovah’s Witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the JW .ORG website. Each man carried a Bible and an Apple iPad. They told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the Bible, and asked if I was a Bible reader. I replied that I have read and studied the Bible and that, while I consider myself to be a spiritual person, I have no interest at all in organized religion. I also told them that I am familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses enough to have concerns about some of their teachings. They asked if I could be more specific.

    I said that I particularly have a problem with the Watchtower teaching of two classes of Christians having separate hopes, with only 144,000 going to heaven, when the Bible teaches that all Christians share one hope. (Ephesians 4:4)

    I asked them to use their iPads to access the book Insight On the Scriptures (the Watchtower’s Bible encyclopedia), and to look up the word ‘sanctuary,’ making note of the definition provided there. They did so, noting the definition, “a divine habitation.” Next, I asked them to access the Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures and to look up Luke chapter 1, verses 9 and 21, making note of the literal meaning of the Greek word rendered there as ‘sanctuary.’ They did so, acknowledging the expression “divine habitation.” Next, I asked them to look up Revelation chapter 7, verse 15, making note of the literal meaning of the same Greek word rendered there as ‘temple.’ They did so, again acknowledging the expression “divine habitation.” I then asked the following question: According to that scripture, where in the spiritual temple did John see the “great crowd” worshiping God, in the outer courtyard (as the Watchtower teaches) or in the sanctuary? They had to admit that, according to that scripture, John saw the “great crowd” worshiping God in the sanctuary (divine habitation) of the spiritual temple.

    Finally, I asked them to look up the word ‘temple’ in the book Insight On the Scriptures to see what it says concerning the hope of those worshiping God in the sanctuary of the spiritual temple. They read for themselves where it says, “The Holy [or sanctuary] represents their condition as spirit-begotten sons of God, with heavenly life in view, and they will attain to that heavenly reward when their fleshly bodies are laid aside in death.” I asked if they believe the “great crowd” to be spirit-begotten sons of God with heavenly life in view. They never did answer that question, but said that they needed to do some more research on the information I had provided.

    I then asked them to access the article, “Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?” in the July 2009 Awake magazine. I directed their attention to the following statement from that article: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds objectionable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” After they had read that statement, I asked, “In view of that statement, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses actively shun exemplary Christians, including family members, who voluntarily leave the religion for conscientious reasons, such as Watchtower teachings which contradict the Bible?” Again, they could not answer my question.

  • Solzhenitsyn

    Followed your research.


  • JW GoneBad
    JW GoneBad

    One elder to the other elder after discussion with you ended:

    " Why don't go back to the Kingdom Hall...get a literature cart...find an isolated place to sit where we don't have to talk to anyone and worse yet answer any questions about contradictory statements in our own publications?"

    The other elder:

    "Amen to that!"


  • Crazyguy

    I doubt this really happened but is an illustration to show how another one of their teachings can be proven wrong. In all reality once someone starts getting to technical or asks elders to start turning to the scriptures or their own publications the elders would of been shutting down the conversation, they can not use their brains that much it forbidden.

  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    Revelation Ch 19 v 1 has the great crowd being in heaven.

    Real mental gymnastics trying to prove otherwise when originally even JWs believed all those saved were going to heaven. They tripped themselves up by limiting the amount to just 144,000.

    New light new truth or new understanding had to be introduced when expansion exceeded their expectations. Where to put all those new members?

  • Rattigan350

    That's not a doctrine that can be proven wrong.

    Rev 19:1 says a great crowd in heaven but that is a description not an identifier of the specific group that John saw in Rev 7.

    Having only 144,000 go to heaven to rule with Jesus makes perfect sense as what other reason would human be taken to heaven.

  • Giordano

    Of course people want to go to a heaven & rejoin their family and friends and it's a reward.

    The JW reward is you suffer and die and then come back neutered........ your greeted by a JW who will hand you a rake and a hazmat suit so you can collect the bones of Billions of dead people. You'll continue to do hard labor for the next thousand years. Probably still having to attend meetings.

    Then face another freaking loyalty test with the possibility of a final death confirmed by a god that seems to delight in death.

    Anyway it's all good...... Revelation is just another crappy bible book.

  • steve2

    Clear and logical. Well presented and argued.

    I'm assuming that the two JWs actively followed your reasoning as you took them from Scripture to interlinear to quotes from their literature? It takes an active brain to do so.

    I suspect that your two JWs switched off at some point (as JWs do when anyone shows them anything specific). But hopefully either one of them heard enough to be disturbed by their organization's slanted and simplistic notion of the two classes (one heavenly, the other earthyly.) and will privately investigate your points further.

  • MrExJW

    Hi, that was amazing! Dude you rock!!!

  • Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho

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