Honestly, who gives a F#ck?!
I certainly don’t
Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?
by Sea Breeze 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Rattigan350
I have a problem with the whole "Jesus said something so that is the way it is" mentality.
"into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Why do they assume that people will be burned forever in it?
It says the fire is everlasting. But, yeah, so what?
Why was there nothing said about this prior?
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. "
The understandings of these things have been in the Society's books for decades. There is no reason to question it
That is not hell. That is a horrible translation. It is gehenna which is a garbage pit in Jerusalem that was burning. Jesus used that as an illustration of eternal destruction. The dead bodies of criminals were put there as they were not in memorial tombs and they were not expected to have a resurrection.
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Sea Breeze
@enoughisenough
sea breeze- one of the original lies to EVE was she wouldn't ever die.
You assume that the definition of death is non existence. That is a materialism concept and totally unbiblical. Early on in the bible, a definition of death is given:
Gen 35: 17-18 Now it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said to her, “Do not fear; you will have this son also.” And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name [a]Ben-Oni; but his father called him [b]Benjamin.
In the bible, when a persons' body becomes separated from their soul & spirit, they become "dead" - not unconscious.
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. - James 2: 26
When these three are rejoined after death (separation), a resurrection occurs.There is no such language in the bible like the the WT deceptively uses, like:
"resurrected to spirit life"
This phrase is totally made up and presupposes that death means unconsciousness. The WT is a master at building logical doctrines on totally false presuppositions (assumptions).
Two scriptures prove thaat man is a tri-partite being in the image of his maker (who is also a tri-partite being)
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. - Hebrews 4: 112
Their are dozens and dozens of other verses that also allude to this:
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
In other words, you cannot be a Christian without being "born again" with a new spirit.
Believers experience assured salvation now because of that new spirit that is born from God (which literally makes believers his son)
Scripture is clear:
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free - Romans 8
The reason believers are not condemned (even in this life) is because the new spirit they receive is sinless, born of God and is actually them, their person. And since this is a supernatural work of God, which makes you a son, God has certain obligations toward his children to take care of them ,the same as any father has obligations toward his sons.
God, (and fathers such as myself) have no such legal obligations toward other peoples' children.
The whole concept of circumcision points to the future (now) when under a legal agreement, a person's old spirit is sliced off and discarded and a new sinless spirit is fused with a person' body and soul..... in this life.
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel ...But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; ...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. - Jer. 31 ("heart" is synomonous with "spirit" in the bible much of the time)
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter - Romans 2
Once a person abandons the false definitions and narratives of the WT, the scriptures come alive.
Col. 2: 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
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EasyPrompt
Acts 7:39-42
"Our forefathers refused to obey him, but they pushed him aside and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron: ‘Make gods for us to go ahead of us. For we do not know what has happened to this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt.’ So they made a calf in those days and brought a sacrifice to the idol and began to enjoy themselves in the works of their hands. So God turned away from them and handed them over to offer sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the Prophets: ‘It was not to me that you made offerings and sacrifices for 40 years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel?"
The ancient Egyptian religion taught about a fiery hell and about three separate "essences".
Over the centuries, the Jews were influenced by the religious beliefs of all the cultures around them and among them - Ammonites, Moabites, Babylonian, Greek, etc.
The Jewish sects absorbed the crazy doctrines of the different peoples. When Jesus came, he helped people see that those doctrines were false.
"So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
@SeaBreeze, when my kids were little, I would tell them the story of Goldilocks and the three bears. Sometimes when we were waiting in the car for a long time, they'd want me to tell it again and again. Sometimes I changed the story a bit and the three bears went out to get a pizza, or at the end they had a party, or something else. But all those times I told the story, my kids never, ever thought that the three bears and Goldilocks was a real story. They knew the difference between an illustration and reality, just like enoughisenough does.
@SeaBreeze, Jesus hates lies about God. He hated that the scribes and Pharisees were misleading the people and distancing them from God by means of all those horrid doctrines. It's the same today. Jesus said he is coming to dispose of all the false doctrines and remove those "fancy teachers" from their post. That's what he meant in those illustrations.
The parable about Lazarus and the rich man, the illustrations about the "fiery furnace" and "weeping and gnashing teeth", the plagues of Revelation, they are all figurative to show that very soon when Jesus is enthroned in heaven he will be changing things down here as regards true worship. The GB/FDS, the clergy of Christendom, the false doctrines about hellfire and disfellowshipping...all that stuff will be removed during the great tribulation. When the religious institutions are attacked, the "high ones" in those religious institutions will be humbled and their false doctrines will be destroyed.
"His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."
The "fiery furnace" is figurative. The GB/FDS/clergyofChristendom will weep and gnash their teeth during the great tribulation because they'll have lost all their income and prestige. That will be their figurative "hellfire". They will never be able to exalt it over the people again - they will be eternally prevented from lording it over others with lies.
"“Be glad over her, O heaven, also you holy ones and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced his judgment on her in your behalf!” And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again."
The "unending destruction" of religious institutions and their associated false teachings is just like Vanderhoven7 said: "descriptive of a destruction which is unending in the sense that it is eternally irreversible."
“Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.” And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.”
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Sea Breeze
@EasyPrompt
Your posts are big on fluff and short on scripture. WT heresy cannot stand in light of the many scriptures I cited.
Please address the scriptures I cited if you want to be taken seriously. -
DesirousOfChange
Why not make a Christian doctrine out of Eccl. 10: 19 too?
Many, many have done so.
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EasyPrompt
"Your posts are big on fluff"
Some kids like fluff.😃
"if you want to be taken seriously"
"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfeLsPRl3so
"Jesus called the infants to him, saying: “Let the young children come to me, and do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.”"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E73D9TQIfUA
"Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men. For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, so that no one might boast in the sight of God. But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”"
"heresy cannot stand in light"
"“Go and take your stand in the temple, and keep on speaking to the people all the sayings about this life."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKqLl_ZEEY
Hey, @SeaBreeze, all those plagues in Revelation and the gospels about the lights going out are also talking about the religious leaders getting humbled.
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Sea Breeze
It is unwise to call the message that the Word of God had a part in conveying to mankind "a philosophical book" "carnal" and "physical".
EP,
I’m not the one calling it that. The book itself uses the phrase “under the sun” dozens of times so that the reader would know that this philosophical work is written from a physical world point of view.
No one ever misunderstood this until a man with a 7th grade education (CT Russell) came along and selectively quoted it as otherwise.
The fact is that you grew up as an atheist and you got all of your theology from one of the world’s largest and most abusive cults the world has ever seen.
Heres an honest question : If You were facing Jesus right now and he asked you why he should let you into his kingdom, what would your answer be?
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EasyPrompt
@SeaBreeze, You make a lot of wrong assumptions.
I didn't grow up in an atheist home. My mother was raised as a Catholic and my father was Episcopalian.
I have studied different religious theologies at many points in my life, down from when I was a kid to later in college as part of my degree for a double major in anthropology and archaeology.
Heres an honest question : If You were facing Jesus right now and he asked you why he should let you into his kingdom, what would your answer be?
I would hope that all your questions are honest. Jesus wouldn't ask me that question. But if he asked me why you should be let to live under his kingdom, I would say because his ransom blood is enough for you even though you're mixed up about a lot of things under the sun.
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EasyPrompt
Jesus' illustrations in the gospels and in Revelation are not about literal eternal fire and they are not about burning people forever. The Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures in the so-called "Old Testament" help explain the meaning of "fire" in Revelation just like they help explain the meaning of the word "virgins" in the following passage...
Revelation 14:3-5
"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."
@SeaBreeze, the "Old Testament" book The Song of Solomon explains the meaning of these "virgins". Those of the 144,000 are loyal to Christ and willing to wait for his kingdom rather than figuratively prostitute themselves now in order to have fame and money, like the leaders of the religious institutions prostitute themselves when they fleece the flock and lord it over the flock in order to rule like "kings" now.
The faithful virgin talking of her shepherd lover at Song of Solomon 5:10-16 uses imagery reminiscent of the temple - pomegranates, gold, sapphires, pillars, and cedars.
Song of Solomon is not just a "love story" about a man and a woman. It portrays the willingness of those in the kingdom government to wait faithfully for Christ. It is in that way that they are "virgins". It's figurative.
Song of Solomon 8:6,7
"Place me as a seal upon your heart,
As a seal upon your arm,
For love is as strong as death is,
And exclusive devotion is as unyielding as the Grave.
Its flames are a blazing fire, the flame of Jah.
Surging waters cannot extinguish love,
Nor can rivers wash it away.
If a man would offer all the wealth of his house for love,
It would be utterly despised.”
Loyalty and integrity can be like an undying flame of love. The flame isn't literal. It's figurative.
Solomon's writings include Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon. All three of those books are inspired of God and necessary in order to accurately understand Revelation and Jesus' teachings.
@SeaBreeze, You are much mistaken when you call part of God's Word:
"philosophical work...written from a physical world point of view."
If you are only getting a "materialistic" view of God's Word, then it's because your preconceived notion is blocking your heart from reading along with holy spirit, the primary fruit of which is love. You are not reading with love in mind. That's why you keep misunderstanding who God is and what He's about. It's not complicated. You don't need a degree or sophisticated training to understand love. God said if we keep asking Him for His spirit to understand something, He'll answer that prayer. Love helps us understand. Love is part of His spirit. We have to keep asking for Love in order to understand God, because God is Love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxIzr7CbcQ
"They keep following the Lamb wherever he goes..."