by Brokeback Watchtower 94 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
@waton:
I agree. You are correct. I also think that socialism conflicts with human nature. I tend to focus on the calculation problem. Mises did as well because the socialists started claiming human nature could change. A new "socialist man" could be created.
I don't understand why there is anything good to be learned from Marxism. The only lessons worth learning is that the entire idea is rotten and should be perpetually discarded.
MMM
waton: A commie factory was ordered to produce x number of footwear ( as calculated by Central Committee for need), promptly produced the most convenient to make, and at Kaganovitch pace and quality. not wanted, left the needy in need.
Just a nit-picking correction. The calculation of the number of shoes to produce would not be made by the Central Committee. This calculation would have been made by the Central Planning Bureau. Likely you have over-simplified the planning process in order to make your point. It's a mistake to do that in order to attempt to make an ideological point
Otherwise, I have no criticism of your criticism of the potential problems involved with Central Planning or with the motivation.
But I would like to note that often people who just work for some business enterprise, are often very unmotivated. That's true whether they work for the government or a private company-(I could write a lot of words about that facet of human life, I'd likely start with Aristotle's concept that there existed a "natural" slave class of humans, that is, they were born to be slaves, or today, as welfare dependents).
Back in the day, I managed a small factory, making custom products. Based on the material cost and the processes required we'd quote a price for the product, which meant we had to carefully watch production times to be sure of our gross profit. It was hard to keep the guys motivated. Sometimes, I'd chide them and tell them the world was changing and there were hungry people out there who wanted their job. That usually brought gales of laughter, but it was true, and lots of those jobs no longer exist in OZ.
I am unsure if problems with Central Planning (if it was in universal use from 1949 until Den Xiao-Pings time) led the Chinese government to make the change to a market led economy? In any case, Deng's decision to harness the energy of ordinary people to make a quid unleashed the tremendous energy now obvious in the Chinese economy
You may also be interested in the fact that after the Korean war ended in 1953, the DPRK (with Russian assistance) and despite the fact that nearly every structure had been damaged by US bombing, re-built far faster than the ROK. (Now the ROK is a long way ahead of the DPRK)
That was likely because decisions could be made faster. But the whole process came unstuck with the death of Kim Il-sung. Kim Il-sung had acted like the CEO of a vast corporation and it is said that he spent most of his day on the telephone sorting out problems.
When he died and Kim Jong-il became President (in 1994), he refused to do that, and left the nation's factories and companies to their own devices. Problems and stuff-ups soon brought all kinds or problems and this one thing likely led to the problems of the late 1990s.
Interestingly again (I think, for you guys) Out of the famine conditions of the late 1990s, came the first glimmerings of a market economy in NK. People were desperate, and whatever they could scrounge to sell they did, little shanty markets started to spring up all over NK (sometimes selling goods obtained from relatives in China, where across a small river - in places - over two million ethnic Koreans live (the are Chinese citizens) and sometimes from Zainichi Koreans living in Japan, who, for whatever reason gave some loyalty to the DPRK (its complicated). This process, from a slow start, has accelerated in recent years and is now an important part of the north Korean economy, The strange thing is, that its mainly an area where women have taken a lead and that's also changing NK social mores, because the women make more money than their husbands. (NK claims to have full employment, so all the males have a job, even if they have no work to do, and even if their salary is worth very little. But the rules are they must turn up at their office/factory every day, anyway)
MeanMrMustard: It is not what you think. This village is basically a corporation using labor from the surrounding towns, paying them a wage, and producing products (like steel) to sell and realizing the profits because they can calculate their inputs and outputs due to prices. The workers coming in from surrounding towns are glad to work for these capitalists because it improves their standard of living. Nothing wrong with that...
Smile, I'm happy you picked up on that point (I wondered if anyone would notice that development).
But it does not take away from the fact that at the start of this village's development all the labour was internal to the village. The use of non-village workers only came with success. But yes, you're basically correct in saying that the village became a corporation.
And whether, a business enterprise is owned by one individual, or by a company or by the government is not particularly important. What's important is that has the following:
1. Access to adequate capital.
2. Skilled management.
3. Skilled technicians.
4. Good accounting practise.
Japan is noted for its fast industrialisation in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. And, even though there was at times insufficient private capital to start a factory making a certain product, the government was prepared to step in and start a business making the product and later sell the business.
It may be noted in this discussion that government ownership was common in the past. Right across Asia there is evidence that governments initiated production facilities. For the reason already stated, that there was insufficient private capital available for the project. Not surprising when you consider that most of the population (say 80% to 90%) was engaged in agriculture. Only the state had the resources to inject capital into some enterprise.
Lack of capital is the limiting factor in many economic projects. When the CPC came to power in China, they inherited, not only a war ravaged economy, the warlord era, the Japanese war from 1937 and the civil war - 1945 to 1949.\, but also a shortage of capital. (The defeated GMD (or KMT) took China's gold reserves with them - one reason why Taiwan developed so fast. That was the basis of many of the problems they experienced on the road to where they now are).
The asiatic success story is one side of the coin, I have to go by the European perspective, and the wall from the Baltic to the south, and in berlin was testimony how humans detested the way marxism had to be implemented, linked to micromanaging lives. perhaps no fault of the theoretical ideal. The communist's escape clause was
"short time pain for long time gain" but it did not happen soon enough,--- never. While the US paid workers an hourly wage, Communist countries operated on a piecework system, and had star performers setting records in fulfilling their "quota".
There is something to be said for central control in wartime though, otherwise,
Marx missed the mark.
So I've thought about this more... Marx did get it wrong when he thought that people could be forced (or would all be willing) into adopting socialism. Socialism requires people to change how they think about things and what they value. Forcing this to happen is a bad idea.
Perhaps the best we can hope for is for economies to be a good blend of capitalism and socialism (much like in the Scandinavian countries). Even in the US, we're not 100% capitalistic. I've heard a person from Denmark say that the higher taxes there are not viewed with the same disdain as they would be viewed in the US. To the Danes, it's not a "redistribution of wealth", but rather more like an obligation to support the kind of community one wants to live in, where people who are less fortunate can really have a more equal opportunity. Their economy is still market-based, but they have more social programs than we do here in the US.
how about the guaranteed basic income schemes? wt would not have to pay special pioneers $ 45.- a month!
Stephen Pinker's "The Blank Slate" provides an insurmountable obstacle to Marxism. It isn't written for that purpose but he proves conclusively that we possess an innate human nature. Marxism has to assume that humans are blank slates that can be moulded to act against their own interests.
When this impossible project fails those who will not comply must be eradicated.
Even apart from Marxism so much harm has and is being done based on this absurd ideology.
Stephen Pinker's "The Blank Slate" provides an insurmountable obstacle to Marxism. It isn't written for that purpose but he proves conclusively that we possess an innate human nature. Marxism has to assume that humans are blank slates that can be moulded to act against their own interests.
I've read a bit of Pinker, but not that book. I'll have to check it out sometime.
Even apart from Marxism so much harm has and is being done based on this absurd ideology.
What is the absurd ideology you refer to here? The idea of humans being born with a "blank slate"?
It is indeed very hard to fault the Scandinavian countries, both in their economic development and with their social successes. (Although Norway has been helped immensely by its off-shore oil industry). The example of countries such as Sweden and Denmark tends strongly to suggest that a Mixed Economy works best.
That contrasts with the disastrous attempts in the late 1980s / early 1990s to implement a Free Market Economy in this country. (An experiment that is still often referred to as "Rogernomics", after the then minister of finance, Roger Douglas). During the 1980s, economist Milton Friedman gave a series of rather forceful lectures on TV about the virtues of the "Free Market". After that, wondrous claims were made about what it was going to achieve - and for a few years, many people actually believed it, too!
However, the reality was quite different; with just one example of many being the "Leaky Homes" debacle.
FTS,
(NK claims to have full employment, so all the males have a job, even if they have no work to do, and even if their salary is worth very little. But the rules are they must turn up at their office/factory every day, anyway)
I think that is a very down side unless they are able do some good, which say an imaginative mind might take advantage of and spend time doing research about what interests him and just stumble on to something rather naturally to benefit his species. Could spawn a lot of great thinkers depending on of course the type of government propaganda one has been subjected to.
I hope the NKs over come adversity and prosper and the US becomes more friendly with them.
I kind a would like to do that. I did it for years because I had enough assets for a decade of more leisure and squandered a good percentage of it doing it. Since the human brain is hard wired to explore sensory input for exploitation which leads to better survival rates for our species, I think such free time could be put good use doing research.
