Do Jehovah's Witnesses Accept Evolution? (page 10)

slimboyfat

humbled, yes it's all troubling. I don't think there is an easy answer at all. But what I was suggesting is not like memory being wiped. It is God making it not have happened, which is deeper and more profound than memory being wiped.

Think about it this way. If God exists could he stop someone being run over by a bus tomorrow? I think he could. And if God exists could he stop someone being run over by a bus last week? Given that God is outside space and time, he probably could change reality so that someone wasn't run over by a bus last week. And if he did that, then reality would be changed, not simply a memory erased. The suffering would be gone, not just in the present or the future, but in that past as well.

If God can do this with a single event, can he do it for all suffering? I don't know. But if he is God maybe he can and maybe it is wrong to say there is no way to reconcile goodness and almightiness. We just don't know everything about reality to be able to say definitively.

paul from cleveland

If God made it not have happened then it would only exist in the mind of God. Unless he deletes it from his own mind. Then the whole process would begin again because God wouldn't remember doing it before. Resulting in all of us reliving our lives the same way over and over for eternity. And we're still here so...

slimboyfat

Maybe God can keep the good that has happened while removing the bad. Is that possible? I don't know. If God is God, why not?

More than offering any particular solution, I am suggesting that, if God exists, then there could well be solutions to the problem of evil that we can't even imagine or begin to describe.

If you ask me to describe the mechanics of airplane flight for example, I wouldn't know where to begin. Not just the details, but I don't even know the language or symbols involved or what counts as an explanation in this context.

So what makes us think we are up to the challenge of accurately perceiving, describing, and concluding there is no solution to the problem of evil. If God exists it seems reasonable to suppose he knows more about it than we do, or can do.

Plus what if God simply eliminates suffering in the future. Atheists may say that's not good enough, but many believers may think that does preserve God's goodness. It's a genuine difference in moral judgement. Atheists may be convinced they are right, but if God and believers feel otherwise, how do you judge between the different perspectives. In the end you just get atheists shouting "I am right and you are stupid and callous if you don't agree with me". Is that really any way to settle the issue?

cofty

SBF - I accused you of being callous for the following..

'My own suspicion, no doubt very unpopular, is that we humans take ourselves too seriously when we think our suffereing matters very much.'

I accused you of being a liar for accusing me of distortions for reminding you that you said that. I provided you with a link to prove that you actually did say that.

This is without a doubt the most callous thing I have read on this forum.

Maybe God can keep the good that has happened while removing the bad.

This makes god the moral equivalent of a rapist who drugs his victim with Rohypnol so that they won't remember their trauma.

You have hit the bedrock of absurdity.

slimboyfat

Again it is not a about memory, it is about actually removing suffering itself. If God can stop someone being hit by a bus tomorrow, can he stop someone being hit by a bus yesterday? Not simply make the person forget it, but actually stop the event itself. If God is outside time then maybe he can just as easily stop something yesterday as he can today or tomorrow.

And I meant that maybe our suffering does not matter as much to God as it does to us. And I talked about "our suffering" since we all experience it. I did not mean to say that I don't regard the suffering of people in tsunamis and other disasters as real or terrible. Which I could have said if you asked me, instead of putting very specific and stupid words into my mouth. Using pictures of people suffering to make your ideological points is what I personally would describe as callous. How do you know that the people whose images you are exploiting agree with your views about God? Or is that not important.

cofty

maybe our suffering does not matter as much to God as it does to us.

Then you have changed the topic. I am talking about the god of xtian theism the god and father of Jesus.

This god is love. Love means what we do to promote the well being of others.

I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6

Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1

"Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13

'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.' - 1 John 3

You are defending a strange god of your own invention.

cofty

Which I could have said if you asked me

I challenged you about this callous statement at least half a dozen times. Don't pretend you haven't had ample opportunity to set the record straight. What you meant is very clear from the original context.

cofty

If God is outside time then maybe he can just as easily stop something yesterday as he can today or tomorrow

Pain and suffering happens to humans in real time. Are you really going to persist with the Rohypnol defense?

slimboyfat

I think it was clear I was talking about God's perspective, because I went on to say:

Does that make God a monster? Maybe, like we are monsters to ants or flies.

I didn't respond to your accusation that I am indifferent to the victims of the tsunami because it is beneath contempt, not because I agreed with the words you put in my mouth.

I don't know if you remember, but I have written before that the tsunami of 2004 is what made me disbelieve in God in the first place. So the words you put in my mouth are particularly misdirected.

I find your persistent use of the images of vulnerable and dead people to make ideological points ethically problematic, but that is your choice. How do you know they would agree with you about God or how they would feel about being used to make this point? Does that matter?

A rapist can't undo a rape yesterday, but he can choose not to rape tomorrow.

So a key question, which you have still not engaged with is, if God can undo suffering today, can he also undo suffering yesterday? Humans can't do this of course, but can God do it?

I don't mean simply that God will make people forget about the suffering yesterday, I mean make it not happen at all. If God is outside time maybe he can do this. I don't know whether you don't understand the distinction between not remembering something and it not happening at all, or you are just avoiding it.

cofty

A quarter of a million people did die and the lives of millions more were destroyed. That suffering was real. Pretending God can make it unhappen is absurd. If you are actually just trying to make Christian apologetics sound ridiculous then well played.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses Accept Evolution?

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