Another generation....

by joey jojo 241 Replies latest jw experiences

  • prologos

    I would say there are three classes in wt doctrines here, 1) The 144 000; --2) the Great after Armageddon Crowd, 3) all those that died before Armageddon, that are resurrected to Earth, aka OS.

    In Jw's mind, those witnesses that die now were wrongly called members of the great Crowd, but were definitely Other Sheep.

    Would not any member of a Christian church, not of the wt 144 00 , that died be an OS too? since until 1918, the members of all those churches were considered more or less "True Christians" under scrutiny ..,--- until they were rejected by Christ in favour of Rutherford Inc? and:

    is here a name in wt parlance that is a catch all for general resurrection candidates? 

  • TD

    I would suggest that the recent change to the view on the 144k being sorted by 1935 does open up the opportunity to say that a Christian over the past 19 centuries could be either 144k or OS, but I don't think they have ever directly said this or even implied it

    To my knowledge they've not even implied it (Not yet, anyway) and to be honest, I'm not sure if even the JW's could casually repudiate a cornerstone of Christianity as important as salvation.

    In mainstream Christianity, salvation is the crown of heavenly life. In the JW faith, Christian salvation takes the additional form of preservation through the Great Tribulation. In both instances, the person has been saved, albeit in different ways.

    To simply grow old and eventually pay the penalty for inherited sin via death is not salvation. Such a person has not in any way been saved from the effects of sin. That's what happened to people prior to the Christian era, but the arrival of Christ was supposed to change all that by ushering in a "Better hope," removing the "Condemnation" of the Law, etc.

    If the JW's do chose to go down that route, it would in many ways validate the criticism that they aren't really a Christian religion inasmuch as they would have abolished an important difference between Christian and non-Christian.

  • Vanderhoven7

    There is no scriptural basis for the JW teaching that there are two classes of Christians. Such teaching is established through interpretive abuse (eisegesis vs exegesis).

    "The term exegesis literally means “to lead out of” emphasizing the fact that the interpreter comes to conclusions derived from the text. In contrast, eisegesis (pronounced ī-sə-ˈjē-səs”) means “to lead into” pointing to the fact that the interpreter without warrant injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he/she wishes."

    "Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the Spirit plane? Answer - Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling....They therefore receive life on a spirit plane."  Pastor Russell  1st President, and Founder of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (What Pastor Russel Said p.297)

    "Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel concerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be understood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. ...This picture shows the position of the great multitude. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the great multitude will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures."  J. F. Rutherford, 2nd president Watchtower Bible & Tract Society  (Vindication -book III p 204)

    "Jehovah never makes any mistakes. Where the student relies upon man, he is certain to be led into difficulties.  J. F. Rutherford  (Prophecy pp.67,68)

    - Were Jehovah's Witnesses relying on man?

    - Was the prophesy, that was not really understood until 1932, wrong in 1935? (This is when Rutherford changed his mind about the destiny of the "Great Crowd".)

    "Men not only contradict God, they contradict one another. How can they be reliable guides..." (Awake, Mar. 22,63)

  • prologos

    Was the 1935 " great multitude" event not a case of 'Vox populi, vox dei' ? believing that the 144 000 started with the 12 apostles, the 120 pentecostals, the exclusive "anointed " club had run out of places, too many partakers. so, dovetailing with the "millions will never die--" idea, They proposed this new earthly branch of sub-christianity, catering to the demand.

    Unless wt will declare the 144 000 to be sealed only "in the Lord's day" since 1914, (they have done that to the F&DS after all, cancelling the 12 apostles & Paul), it is clear, that the church expected a new Heavens, but also a New Earth, a fleshly resurrection, and a sealing of rulers, priest out of the general populace during all that time. Wt took it to the extreme, making for a really very crowded Earth (despite paradise illustrations) and a very empty heavens, bigger than the Universe, but with 144 000 newcomers only. vox populi, vox dei. ?

  • Fisherman

    If you have any comments on this quote, I'm interested in hearing them.

    AS you see it, a Siamese twin great crowd connected to the anointed, that survives the great tribulation, should not die of old age beforehand, also mathematically speaking, the clock starts ticking sort of speak as soon as the gc (who's lifespan is also integrated with the "generation of 1914" wt theology, regardless of the meaning of generation)is identified.


    Since the gc is the only entity on earth that survives the gc (All GC are OS but not all OS are great crowd because a dead OS is not part of the great crowd.) It is axiomatic that the gc cannot die of old age(assuming it exists as a class before the gt) but credit to you for highlighting this no so obvious axiom before the forum.

    Seems that in 1935 the wt had erroneously used the term gc instead of os believing in a cut-and-dried generation in connection with non anointed Christians beliving that all OS would make up the GC in terms of lenghth of generation, see below:

    w15 2/15 p. 32 “A Very Precious Season” ***
    The year 1935 marked a dramatic change that affected future Memorial observances, for the meaning of the “great multitude” (KJ), or “great crowd,” of Revelation 7:9 was clarified.
    Jehovah’s servants had viewed this group as consecrated Christians.....

    In other words, a new interpretation of the identity of the great crowd: They were not anointed christians, but a separate entity that survives the great tribulation. And wt is right about that in terms of consistency. Seems that they were not right about concluding that all those other sheep christians would make up the surving great crowd if they were destined die of old age. Nevertheless,such had a different hope than the annointed -paradise earth. AS time passed they hoped that everything would converge someday within the generation of 1914, they expected it would happen within the lifespan of 1914 ers. Therefore hoping to be part of the great crowd must not only mean surving because of conduct but also age.

  • Fisherman

    *** w08 1/15 p. 23 par. 14 Counted Worthy to Receive a Kingdom ***
    Hence, after 1935 the thrust of the preaching work turned to the gathering of “a great crowd,” those whom the apostle John saw in vision and who would survive “the great tribulation.”—Rev. 7:9, 10, 14.

    *** w15 1/15 p. 17 par. 18 Why We Observe the Lord’s Evening Meal ***
    On the other hand, if you are part of the “great crowd” of “other sheep,” God has given you the earthly hope.

    IT seems that some individuals that were part of the great crowd of other sheep that died of old age and other causes are obviously not part of the great crowd that survives the great tribulation. For argument sake lets say that in 1935 there were some that could live through the gt and were 15 years old at the time 1935-15=1920. Now, here we are 2017, those sheep are 97 years old!.

    ON the other hand, I must admit that the great crowd of 1935 must at the very least have had the opportunity to live long enough otherwise if they were destined to die of old age, they never had a chance to be part of the surviving great crowd. And that means that they never were part of the great crowd to begin with. But as long as there was a chance for them to be part of the great crowd that ultimately lives through the gt no matter how old -it is valid.

  • Ucantnome

    'It is the generation of people now living who have the opportunity of learning the Bible and surviving the world's end. Jesus further prophesied concerning this day'

    My father lived beyond the life expectancy for the no 1 country on the list by the World Health Organization ( and beyond what the bible says at Psalms 90:10

    doesn't sound like much of an opportunity. maybe it would have been better to say he had a slim chance of it.

  • prologos

    Fisherman: "--the great crowd must not only mean surving because of conduct but also age. ---the two go hand in hand, with good genes, (mating habits of your ancestors) and clean living and diet, you can live to ~100, I know one member here , (alive, remembering the 1936 Olympics) who, with  those lucky breaks would get him close to the next speculation milestone 1914+120=2034, but Rev 7 speaks of a Great crowd, not a few wheezers in wheelchairs, so:--great like the 1958 NY assembly perhaps? not! and:

    to survive you have to be loyal, even if it seems not logical by human standards, maybe if you could survive, but  if your testament does not leave your wealth to the wt, (and the angels can read that) are you living up to your vow? You may be a sheep (other or not), but if you are not ready to be shorn, you might not become  part of the Great Crowd. am I ever glad that there never was a talking snake or donkey.

  • Lieu

    Prologos, I always thought that whole age thing was stupid. Seriously who were they to base Christ's blessings on age groups? Or to say what year Heaven was "shut"??? It was plain made up BS. If Christ is picking and choosing, then he picks who he wants, not who the hell some imperfect men want.

    The GB of JWs have shown absolutely no proof that they have the Holy Spirit, let alone were chosen to open their mouths and speak for God. It's beyond vain.

    I've thought about it for a while. Biblically speaking, whenever God wanted something said he picked and sent someone. That someone was sent with a message but also with the power to prove (by some miraculous acts) that God had sent him.

    Moses, Elijah et al, Daniel, Jesus. These could actually prove they were sent to speak on God's behalf. Later the Disciples were given power by the Holy Spirit to prove they had been chosen to bring people to Christ. Healing the sick and such.

    Without proof, anybody can say they're 'speaking for God'. The JW hierarchy has no proof whatsoever. The GB of JWs doesn't seem to even have the ability to properly teach (from what those video clips show). They have no power to heal, can't prophesy, pretty much nothing.

    Their whole "generation" thing is wrong, imho, and again they have absolutely no proof that it's right or that they were 'directed' to say such. Their memorial of Christ is so wrong, imho, that there's no point in even attending.

    These guys are simply men like all others. But unlike most others they make glorious claims without any proof. They hang heavy burdens on those trying to know God. No one needs to wash up to their elbows but they've taken that insanity to the color of socks. Their message is one of doom and gloom, not the message of peace, love, and salvation.

    They forget that if we want to know what Jesus said or did, we could read the NT. We don't need them for any of that. We don't need dumb rules. We don't need fear of never being good enough, we don't need thoughts that we can work to gain the "gift" of salvation (if you can work for it, it's a payment owed not a gift), and we don't need the constant negative judgement, ridiculous talks, the lying to everyone, and false dates.

    Prove Christ chose you. Prove you even have a drop of Holy Spirit.

    I want some real proof or they're just another false prophet who came along to lead people astray.

    End Biblically speaking.

  • Ucantnome
    When my parents accepted the good news and baptised as part of the great crowd they were told they had come out of the tribulation as it was taught it started in 1914 so they couldn't die of old age.

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