Interesting quote - October 1, 98 WT

by Dawn 50 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    I can't believe your hypocrisy. You have the nerve to discuss "integrity" when you have so often proven false to your own scholarly pretensions. You have attempted to leverage these pretensions in so many of the discussions about 607 and 539, that I feel it's useful to speak up.

    I can count more than 10 times when it appeared to readers that you had been shown to be wrong or had been thoroughly embarrassed and then you just left the discussion without explanation. But then you have the nerve to come back and start all over in a subsequent discussion, only to make more of the same false, disproven or unsubstantiated statements again, or to contradict yourself again, and to run away again and again. What kind of integrity is that? What does it say about your hypocritical use of the word scholar?

    There was one time recently when I thought you were finally trying to change this perception by staying with the discussion in spite of difficult questions in the thread Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson. Your trademark ability to ignore the question, or put up roadblocks to avoid answering, and other typical diversionary tactics were actually being used far less often, I thought. Then you were caught making a claim that wasn't true about something Carl Olaf Jonnson had written. (You pointed out a mistake he supposedly had made. I believed you, even though I could see that the mistake wasn't significant.) But then it was shown that you were the one who had made the mistake. You never apologized. What kind of scholarship or integrity is displayed by you?

    You've not only implied, but you have directly stated many things that you have also directly contradicted. There are too many to mention but I will show a couple of them: (formatting mine)

    From your 2nd post in this forum under the name, scholar: "The secular date of 586 or 587 in its own way confirms the validity of a scripturally reckoned date of 607. ...because there are some scholars who regard the chronology in the old testament as symbolic or mythical "

    From your 12th post: "Scholars have no evidence for 586 or 587, but simply base their calculations upon their interpretation on secular chronology which is fraught with difficulties"

    From your 15th post: "There is an abundant evidence for 607 as the biblical date for the Fall of Jerusalem."

    Also from 15th post: "The Society has over many decades has demonstrated that their chronology is scholarly, consistent with ancient astronomy and history."

    But from post #67, in January of this year: "You are probably correct that the secular weight of evidence favours 586/587 but this view is something I have recognized in many of my earlier postings....Whereupon there are very few biblical dates if any, apart from the Fall of Babylon that enjoys complete consensus. The calculation of 607 is well based on historical evidence..."

    My real concern with you, I hope you can see, is not sloppy mistakes like confusing Jehoiachin and Jehoiachim, or Kings of Israel with Kings of Judah. We've all made our share of these types of mistakes. My biggest concern is the muddled thinking reflected in many of your posts. You also display a very unscholarly approach to questions and evidence. If you have some evidence to consider, I could care less about grammar or spelling. I'll gladly put up with pretensions, sarcasm, name-calling and a noticably haughty attitude. That's one thing that makes learning and sharing on a Web forum a little more interesting than sitting in a classroom. (Although most of my truly memorable teachers had those same characteristics to some degree.)

    I've seen you claim or imply a few times that you had made charts or had worked out the evidence on paper for a specific claim. Then when someone asked you to share your evidence, you tell them you won't answer unless they produce their own mostly irrelevant chronology of the Judean and Israelite kings first. Or you tell them that you "have not responded...because [you] plan a holistic approach". Or you tell them (as you have also told me) that you don't want to respond because you think everyone's "mind is already made up." More typically, you have just ignored these requests and gone on to the next thread to start the claims all over again. You must know that this is frustrating and, perhaps, this is your goal.

    You and I had turned the thread The New World Translation into a chronology discussoin which you abandoned as soon as I found that your claim was incorrect, based on your own Insight book. I'm not here to run people into the ground -- so I didn't want you to continue just to see you squirm. I still am happy to continue that thread just to discuss the evidence in a civil manner. You may think I missed something; I may think you missed something. Either one of us may still change our mind or we might be able to explain why we continue to believe as we do. Of course, not all threads are worth finishing, but it surprises me that someone who wants to make use of a "scholarly" title, would allow himself a reputation based on a consistent pattern of inexplicably abandoning such threads -- on a subject which you ostensibly take very seriously.

    Gamaliel

  • gambit
    gambit
    You won't find the truth by reading Crisis of Conscience, you will only end up in a spiritual vacuum.

    Exactly what is a spiritual vacuum... Your interesting (shall I say, educated) use of metaphors and similes leaves so much room for interpretation that any interpretation I put on this clearly leaves you an opening for dismissal... Thus, how can anyone on this board possibly converse with you at your level of understanding and precise judgement. I am honored and humbled.

    Please be assured that I am very much open minded and have been even since becoming a Witnes in 1964. Further to this I obtained academic qualifications in Phillosophy and Religious Studies whilst a active Witness and wil be applying for doctoral studies in Religious Studies next year, If that does not prove that I am open minded and able to think critically about all matters religious then I do not know what would.

    Rest assured that Sigmund Freud was also open minded. In fact he obtained degree after degree and developed methods of understanding our psychotic nature that the laymen (and even highly educated men) of the day could not begin to comprehend. I may have to conclude that your open-mindedness in this same category, for I fail to understand virtually exverything you say. Again, I am honored and humbled.

    The Crisis of Conscience iis a most interesting book but I have some difficulty with anyone who has been converted in at least an intellestual sense for most of his life and then suuddenly goes from one form Christianity to some other form of Chriustianity. I believe that what is at issue is integrity and I do not believe that the author of this book has integrity.

    Interesting choice of words... let's get real analytical... OK, "has been converted" precedes the statement "suddenly"... You thus state two conversions in his lifetime... What made the 1st one right and the 2nd one wrong? Then, you even classify the 1st conversion as an intellectual one... interesting point, for many of us believe that, in fact, JW's are an emotionally controlling cult, thus the conversion (ie implied consent and agreement) of emotion is not even in the question. We finally agree (assuming my lack of status allows me to interpret your material into a legible format)... This leads me to... Maybe he never did convert his emotions and once his intellect (ie ego defenses) allowed his emotions to be heard he simply became the man he always was.... a good man, with a clear conscience.

    The material in the Coc is interesting because it gives one an insight into the corridors of power and the internal politcs at the Society;s headquarters. It also well illuminates the effect that the Jonsson hypothesis presented as a treatise had on men who were competent scholars. Such men went weak at the knees when they read this material and yet such men had devoted their lives to preaching and teaching teachings and tradition based and believed by them on God's Word. Is that integrity? I think not. It should have been apparent and remains the case today that any person who becomes converted to such is intellectually and spiritually crippled.

    I just don't get this paragraph... sorry.

    The rules for posting on this board prevent from me from saying what I really think of your character and your spineless venom of hatred against a people, a organization and teachings that you once embraced. Your integrity is diminished by your cowardly avoidance of not submitting yourself to judicial authority or not making your disassociation legitimate. You must therefore be a closet Witness unable to decide what side you are on but remain content in deceiving weak-minded people in following your twisted and shallow reasoning.

    I would be even more honored if you would PM me with what you really think of my character (its not against the rules of the board to defame me privately). I never embraced the organization and/or it's teachings. I was raised in it and it was shoved down my throat like oatmeal... Yeah, it's a quite nutritious meal, till you eat it every day your entire life and are told that if you eat cream of wheat or fail to bless it before you eat it you will DIE !!! Yes, my friend, children take these words very seriously, and they beleive they will DIE and not ever see mommy or daddy again because of it.... scares the devil right out of you.

    Is this really an apostate board? I thought it was a forum that invites one and all to discuss JW's. Have you not heard of academic and Christian freedom? Life is full of risks and it takes courage to think 'outside the square' and if I am error then I am subject to greater authority as is all of mankind.

    Sir, I have yet to defame your character (yet added some insuations out of anger)... but how can you hide behind the cloak of an educational institution as your right to be on this sight, when you know full well, prior to this question that you are on an apostate sight... You are correct, life is full of risks... However, I don't see you as being one to take any of those risks... risks that require emotional honesty, risks that require non-anonimity, risks that may cause your family to shun you, risks that truly weak-minded individuals cannot fathom taking.

    I've truly enjoyed running into your post, and reviewing your history here. Your writing style has been a great analytical tool for my healing process.... read also garybuss' threads when he "attempts" to argue emotionally charged topics and pretend to be on the other side of the fence... similar style of avoiding the original question, re-directing the topic, transferring the blame (which didn't exist originally), and refusing to clarify when asked... all the standard emotional blackmail tools that exJW's just love to toy with... your making my day !

    Oh, one difference... challenge garybuss and he will come clean... and yes, he is a very good debater and a very knowledgable scholar...
    But I don't believe he will either admit or profess this... he doesn't need to, his peers and students will vouch for him.

    Have a great day ! Thank you.

    gambit

    If we want to worship God acceptably, we must know the truth. This is an important issue. Our eternal happiness depends on it. Therefore, everyone should ask himself: 'Is my way of worship acceptable to God? Am I genuinely interested in learning the truth of God's Word? Or am I afraid of what a careful investigation might reveal?'

    um.......yea....so.........tell me again why I would get in trouble for reading Crisis of Conscience?

    Dawn -- It's easy to tell when you hit a soft spot with a JW, huh? It's just like telling the alcholic they have a drinking problem... I guess they are right when you think about, it's not their problem, it's ours.. it's our problem we care...

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    I just wanted to add that I agreed with almost everything you stated in this post:

    The material in the Coc is interesting because it gives one an insight into the corridors of power and the internal politcs at the Society;s headquarters. It also well illuminates the effect that the Jonsson hypothesis presented as a treatise had on men who were competent scholars. Such men went weak at the knees when they read this material and yet such men had devoted their lives to preaching and teaching teachings and tradition based and believed by them on God's Word. Is that integrity? I think not. It should have been apparent and remains the case today that any person who becomes converted to such is intellectually and spiritually crippled.

    I can't tell if you meant exactly what I read in this, but you are correct about the effect of the Jonnson treatise. I don't know just how competent these men were as scholars, but Ray admits that he wasn't a competent scholar, and it put him in a very difficult situation when he was asked to try to defend 607 as best he could. But I know you and many others considered his uncle Fred to be a very competent scholar, and it was very unexpected to see such a man as Fred Franz go "weak in the knees".

    I know I've mentioned this to you before, but I made several friendships in the Writing Department due partly to an early and unexpected friendship with Bert Schroeder, partly due to my work with the "adjacent" Art Department and partly with the fact that my own personal study of Greek was discovered and I was given a couple of research projects. Jim Napolitano (Writing) gave my wedding talk and Fred Rusk (Writing) performed the ceremony. (My wife doesn't want me to mention this, but Brother Rusk was the one who studied with her for her baptism several years earlier since she was in his congregation in central Manhattan. Fred and Margie often brought over various members of the Writing Dept to answer her questions, so my wife and I already had several friends in common.) I am not naming my two best friends in Writing out of respect for their privacy, but from one of them (back then) I learned just how "weak in the knees" these men like Fred Franz had become over the Jonsson treatise. The answers to my own questions about chronology from one of those unnamed friends led me to abaondon 1914 for scriptural reasons long before I had ever spoken to Ray Franz or even heard about Carl Jonsson and his treatise. Only when my friend was convinced that I had clearly made up my mind on 1914 no matter what the consequences to me organizationally did he admit what he knew about Jonsson's treatise was sitting on a shelf because everyone was afraid to touch it. (And that it showed that there historical and chronological reasons, not just my Scriptural reasons for not accepting 1914.) At the time there were already at least 4 writers that I knew who no longer believed in 1914. (I should also include 4 members of the GB definitely, and more likely 5, but only two of which were in writing at the time, and Swingle only seemed to be agnostic about 1914, not completely against it.)
    I think that part of Fred Franz' fear was that reading or trying to respond to this treatise would turn more of Writing against 1914. Fred evidently hadn't really dealt with this material directly since the 1940's, and since then a lot of new material had made it even "more impossible." I think Fred was truly afraid the entire Society would crumble over the 1914 issue. Ray Franz mentions a couple of more names involved in the "Bert Schroeder hypothesis" for starting the generation in 1957. Only one of those names mentioned by Ray in CoC was already on my own list of non-1914 supporters, so I guess there could always have been others who didn't really believe in 1914, but were smart enough to keep quiet about it. True, Fred Franz showed "integrity" to 1914. But he knew how weak the case for it was, and he knew the Writing Department had to be cleaned out if 1914 was to get full support. People hypocritically scrambled to the old conservative position that aligned them with Fred, even though some of these people had already admitted they didn't believe in 1914. It reminded me of people gathering around the copper serpent in Moses day (Fred Franz being the copper serpent.) In 1979 especially, when it became obvious that a cleansing was about to take place, and the writing was on wall about which position was going to survive, some of those who aligned themselves with Fred Franz (like Gene Smalley and Leo Greenlees) became very abusive of the "unaligned" who quietly kept their integrity to "truth" instead. Arguments in the Writing Dept even became disturbingly loud a couple of times, but I think that some of that was on purpose, because it helped align and position the people who were trying to save their careers.
    I know of one person still writing your Watchtower study articles who doesn't (or didn't) believe in 1914. I suspect that there are again more like him but I can't get close enough to the situation to find out. If the Writing Department ever gets to a situation again like they did in 1978 and 1979 there will be no Fred Franz to align themselves with this time. I have a suspicion that there may already be a similar conservative party in Writing that would be willing to revert on the "generation" to go back to the more conservative position about the 1914 generation with a 120 year maximum lifespan to match the length of the generation "just as in Noah's day." This time I don't think the conservative position can get enough backing. I expect 1914 to be abandoned in 2034, just as the 70 year generation was abandoned in 1984. Naturally, I think it's those who stick with these traditions who are the spiritually crippled. Fred Franz was already spiritually crippled, but I didn't really notice it until he went "weak in the knees" over Jonsson's treatise. You will see a few more of your friends go weak in the knees while trying to use Furuli's feeble attempt to prop up 1914 again.
    Gamaliel
  • scholar
    scholar

    Gamaliel

    You have posted two rather lenghty posts concerning my earlier and present comments on chronology and the subject to hand. Let me make some points respecting chronology and my reponses to the past dialoque. I have no intention of running away fro such issues as these will all resurface from time to time and I will be taking a more powerful assault against the attempts to invalidate the Society's chronology. At present I have been having a discussion with Carl Jonsson concerning a issue which I will believe completely disredits the Jonsson hypothesis, once this is finished then I have a responsibility to the Readers of that hypothesis to fully inform them so that they can make an informed judgement about the credibility of the treatise that you speak of and in published form known as GTR

    Upon researching the facts of the matter I am of the considered view that anyone who has read the treatise and the GTR and has been caused to convert to it is weak minded. I do not believe for a moment that the greatest Bible scholar who has ever lived namely Frederick William Franz was affected by it. Like myself he would have regarded such revisionist chronology as simply rubbish saying nothing more than what scholars have said abot chronology over the last century being influenced by higher criticism.

    No evidence biblical or secular can discredit the date 607 and the prophetic significance with 1914. The whole Jonsson hypothesis rests upon one scripture and the translation of a preposition. I for one am not prepared to base my faith on such a slim proposition. I want to base my faith on a chronology that has substance, nourishes theology, and prophecy. The true chronology is ALIVE not dead and moribund.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • eisenstein
    eisenstein

    Wow you guys/gals are really impressive spewing out these names like they are some sort of demigods who have authority to translate scriptures. All they are, Fred Franz included (as much as I love his book), are imperfect men who think they have more insight than the average man or woman. And they really get pumped up on this fact.

    While I am relatively concerned about the "times were living in" and what part 1914 plays, I think the bigger picture here is what we are DOING about it, rather than trying to pinpoint the exact hour that God is going to act out his wrath on a godless, wicked generation.

    And, I don't mean to burst your bubble there, Gameliel, but right after FR literally criticized my sister who was on her death bed, who was doing the "theocratic" thing by confiding in him that she thought she might be one of the annointed...(he told her..."so why do you think Jehovah would choose someone like you who hasn't built up years of "INTEGRITY" over someone with more "experience and time in Jehovah's service"?...Well, right after this, he was sent out to pasture in Patterson.

    Excuse me for saying so, but I think it is going to take more than a "scholar" to enter into the kingdom of God, that is if He hasn't already given up on this idea because of simple minds like us.

    eisenstein

  • berylblue
    berylblue

    re: Gary Buss

    Yes, a wonderful, intelligent and MODEST man.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel
    Wow you guys/gals are really impressive spewing out these names like they are some sort of demigods who have authority to translate scriptures.

    I am not trying to impress anyone, except to impress them with the same point you are making. These people were far from demigods; very few would or could even claim to be scholars. Yet these same people are the ones that folks like "scholar" are effectively worshipping as if they were demigods. I was a 19-year-old kid who hadn't even finished high school, and yet my so-called "research" in Greek was used to try to support Watchtower propaganda. Granted I was flattered for a time, but it quickly began to occur to me that I should rather be embarrassed over the lack of skills available to an organization where a member of the GB makes use of my help. (Of course, I wouldn't agree that it takes a demi-god to translate scripture; most scriptures use rather simple and straightforward language.)

    All they are, Fred Franz included (as much as I love his book), are imperfect men who think they have more insight than the average man or woman. And they really get pumped up on this fact.

    Did you mean Ray Franz' book? Ray (living) was a member of the GB who gave was assigned to be a "scholar" (responsible for producing the Aid book with the help of several others) but he humbly realized he couldn't honestly live up to the notion. Fred (Ray's now-deceased uncle) was the eccentric President of the Watchtower Society at the time who had a fairly good reputation as a scholar and translator. He could speak about 9 languages, had an excellent memory and had enough knowledge to get by in Biblical Greek and Hebrew. Ray is probably fluent only in English, Spanish and probably fairly fluent in French and Portuguese.

    While I am relatively concerned about the "times were living in" and what part 1914 plays, I think the bigger picture here is what we are DOING about it, rather than trying to pinpoint the exact hour that God is going to act out his wrath on a godless, wicked generation.

    I agree with the direction you are leaning in here. I'd gladly discuss it in a different thread.

    And, I don't mean to burst your bubble there, Gameliel, but right after FR literally criticized my sister who was on her death bed, who was doing the "theocratic" thing by confiding in him that she thought she might be one of the annointed...(he told her..."so why do you think Jehovah would choose someone like you who hasn't built up years of "INTEGRITY" over someone with more "experience and time in Jehovah's service"?...Well, right after this, he was sent out to pasture in Patterson.

    That same "bubble" was already burst for me before 1980. Fred Rusk told my wife exactly the same thing. The implication was almost explicit: Why do you think God would choose you over me? It's the same stupid thing these men started telling those with heavenly aspirations since at least the 1920's. Back then the guest chamber for heaven had been filled since around 1878 and to replacement unfaithful ones, the call to heaven continued until 1881. But after 1881 it was only to replace the very rare unfaithful anointed (who had already been replaced - a replacement of the fresh replacements), so there could be no more "general call" to the heavenly hope, therefore the door to heaven had been effectively closed by about 1881. They made some adjustments to these dates, of course, around 1930 when the 1874 date was updated to 1914 and the 1878 date was updated to 1918. They had to let the door open for a little while until they decided that 1935 was the new general cut-off for heaven.

    Look how they answered almost the same question (this letter is on Jourles site now):

    http://www.dirtclod.com/yappa-ng/?album=%2FGeneralLetters%2Fannointed&

    Cheers,

    Gamaliel

  • DFWnonJW
    DFWnonJW
    ... greatest Bible scholar who has ever lived namely Frederick William Franz ...

    Oh my achin' azz. Well, uh, I do believe I've heard it all now, anti-typically speaking.

    Take out the space in the credentials and you'll get a clearer picture of this whole mess.

    'BAMA Studies in Religion. Go Tide.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    scholar,

    Well, thank for making a reply. I still always get impression that your replies purposely ignore the main point. I understand that habit is probably just a reflection of your stated disdain for what many of us must represent to you. I'm not asking or expecting a reply to any issues I brought up in this thread, it was only an expression to make a point about what I perceive as a lack of integrity in general which includes a lack of scholastic integrity which I think has been obvious to nearly everyone who has tried to dialogue with you.

    Nevertheless,I will comment on some things you said...

    No evidence biblical or secular can discredit the date 607 and the prophetic significance with 1914.

    Quite an admission! I think this is the primary problem. There is plenty of bblical evidence against 607. Additionally, the prophecies you rely upon for 1914 become more worthless each day when attached to 1914. There is absolutely nothing biblical about it. But why wouldn't you let even Biblical evidence discredit 1914? Is it that important to you, that not even the Bible can dissuade you? Those who have tried to reason with you on this subject have already discovered that this is a very true statement about you (and most other JWs too, for that matter). I think, however, that it was only a Freudian slip and/or muddled thinking that allowed the idea to be stated by you directly.

    The whole Jonsson hypothesis rests upon one scripture and the translation of a preposition. I for one am not prepared to base my faith on such a slim proposition. I want to base my faith on a chronology that has substance, nourishes theology, and prophecy. The true chronology is ALIVE not dead and moribund.

    Every expert in the field, and thousands of pieces of evidence are all 100% against the 607 hypothesis. The 607 hypothesis has failed completely at every attempt to confirm it. It is the trait of very poor thinking, in fact is a logical fallacy, to try to bundle thousands of pieces of evidence into one convenient little preposition. If Jonnson never wrote his treatise, 100% of the evidence would still go against 607. The Bible evidence is definitely against it and so is all the secular evidence. But of course, you admitted that neither one of these sources will make a difference to you. That's cult mentality at its finest.

    Your obsession with Jonnson for this obvious purpose was comical, but becomes tiresome after you have been shown again and again that your obsession with Jonnson is irrelevent. Your stated hatred for AlanF has apparently reached the same level of obsession, and even extends to the point of your need for him to submit to judges who are totally ignorant of his reasoning and the facts. Obviously it would somehow be easier for you to dismiss his arguments if you could point to the fact that some evidence-ignorant judges found it necessary to "burn him at the stake" (figuratively, of course.) You remind me of the Catholic Inquisitors, and their scholastic integrity. (The Catholics finally apologized for banning Galileo, by the way.)

    Upon researching the facts of the matter I am of the considered view that anyone who has read the treatise and the GTR and has been caused to convert to it is weak minded.

    You must be worried that a lot of JWs are weak-minded. It is my considered view that any JW who researches the facts of the matter behind these treatises who DOESN"T convert is weak minded. There has been little or NO evidence on this forum yet of anyone who has truly researched the facts who hasn't converted. You, "scholar," have never given evidence that you have truly researched these issues. This is what I am complaining about in this thread. You always run away from either the thread or the specific points made in a thread that show your claims are false. We could always try again, but so many of these threads already set the pattern that you will merely run away again.

    I do not believe for a moment that the greatest Bible scholar who has ever lived namely Frederick William Franz was affected by it.

    No further comment necessary.

    I for one am not prepared to base my faith on such a slim proposition.

    You already do. With a little research you will find that the current "607 hypothesis" is actually based on the "Barbour/Russell 606 hypothesis" which is ultimately based on a single word: "double" 1914 would never have been taught if it weren't for an incorrect exegesis of that word in Isaiah 40:1,2. (It's repeated numerous times across the entire series of Studies in the Scriptures.) Your Watchtower Society currently rejects the exegesis of Isaiah 40:1,2 that resulted in Barbour's and subsequently Russell's acceptance of these ideas (already being preached in several versions by John Aquila Brown, Henry Drummond, William Miller, George Storrs, etc., etc.).

    Food for thought (aka, Food for Undernourished Christians),

    Gamaliel

  • eisenstein
    eisenstein

    (((((((Gamaliel)))))))

    I didn't intend to come off as cross as my post seems. I just get very discouraged with everyone sitting around trying to pinpoint a certain date. It is like taking power away from God. I always hated these type of Watchtower articles growing up. The important message I got from reading the gospels and revelation was what would we be doing when the lord arrived?

    I am sorry to hear about how FR minimized your wife's sincere question. It really upset me when he belittled my sister that way too.

    I meant as you said, Raymond Franz' book, and not his uncle Fred. I had remembered that I typed the wrong name when I was thinking about it yesterday. I certainly am not a scholar, just raised as a dub.

    Ochin Priyatnye!!! (phonetic sound for "nice to meet you" in Russian)

    eisenstein

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