pdf's of Raymond Franz's books

by Newly Enlightened 277 Replies latest members private

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  rip van winkle

  Steve2, I was stating the facts.

  It was a gift received by JC that I mentioned a few times but it seemed to have been missed.

  I'm not arguing about copyright issues. It is an issue. And some of those who are indignant here about this issue have more-likely- than-not either received/used or have provided bootleg copyrighted materials in this community. Let's not be hypocrites.

  I just doubt very much the copyright heir will squabble over 5 or 6 copies JC received as a gift because (again) the pdf has been free and available for years. And hundreds or maybe thousands of people have downloaded FREE pdf copies of this copyrighted material.

  Whatever will be will be. That's now up to the lady who owns the copyrighted material of Ray Franz to decide.
  
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  Jonathan Drake

  I'm seriously done posting after this. But you're 100% right girl next door. All of that page is where i took it from. I said it "allows" but I should have been more clear, it is a case by case basis. My only point was that it is something that is not automatically disallowed? Does that say it better?

  as to the comment that it "speaks to my mentality". I have not gotten personal with anyone here. So i don't appreciate this. Also if the case did go to trial, it very much wood determine which viewpoint was correct wouldn't it? I mean that is the point of the trial to begin with. So yes. My comment stands.
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  Simon

  Jonathan - this may help you understand it better:

  Sometimes some websites are unavailable ... like "out of print". So would it be OK if I setup a proxy to reproduce such a site and maybe replaced the ads on it with my own ads? That would make it different and fair use ... right?

  Would that be the same? Wouldn't the people who owned the site go absolutely ape-shit ... yet they see nothing wrong with doing effectively the same thing with what belongs to someone else.
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  1009

  My 2 cents. CoC is out of print. For years. The copyright holder didn't seem interested in reprinting the book (or did she even complaint about the pdf's circulating in the internet?). The book needs to be reprinted to help save lifes from a damaging cult (my old father wants to read it, but the printed book simply isn't available anymore in Dutch). So I welcome every initiative to make it available again.
  
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  Simon

  Yes, the "good outcome" that should be welcomed in all of this is if the books are made available again for the next generation of witnesses leaving.

  Of course at some point the impact of them will wane - I doubt many of us know or care about the schisms and intrigue that happened within the Russelite movement in the late 1800's / early 1900's so it is good if the books can have the maximum impact while they still relate to the current WTS organization.
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  OrphanCrow

  1009: My 2 cents. CoC is out of print. For years. The copyright holder didn't seem interested in reprinting the book (or did she even complaint about the pdf's circulating in the internet?). The book needs to be reprinted to help save lifes from a damaging cult (my old father wants to read it, but the printed book simply isn't available anymore in Dutch). So I welcome every initiative to make it available again.

  CoC is out of print. That is correct.

  And yes, CoC has helped a lot of people.

  But that still doesn't mean that bootleg copies are legal.

  My two cents is that anyone who engages in a mass distribution is doing so out of a lack of respect to the original creator of the work - Ray Franz. (I am not talking about sharing personal copies with friends - that is a non-brainer...no different than lending out a book that is yours - no law against that)

  Respect for Ray Franz is analagous to respect for his estate and his wishes. He is the one who left his estate in someone's control. It astounds me that the same people who sing Ray's praises are also the same ones who think that just because his book was so good, that it should be thrown out to the public domain. That shows an utter lack of regard for Ray Franz. Just because he is dead doesn't mean that his original work is now free for everyone.

  If anyone is truly sincere about making sure Ray's book is available, they would make efforts to contact the copyright holder and offer to pay the large amount of money needed to put a book back into circulation.

  A few years back, I came across a book (doesn't matter what it was - it wasn't a exJW or JW book) that was no longer in print. I really liked the book and wanted to purchase several copies for other people. I contacted the author to see how I can acquire more copies. The book was out of print and the author told me that another run of books would cost her at least $10,000.

  I have no idea what the cost would be to put Ray's book back into print, but I would guess that it is a substantial amount.

  And...if the copyright holder is resistant to offers from others to foot the hefty bill of a re-print...then that is the copyright owner's perogative.

  Respect for Ray should include respect for his estate. Stealing his book is no different than showing up at his home after his death and taking his car just because that car had driven a bunch of exJWs around.
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  OrphanCrow

  Simon: Of course at some point the impact of them will wane - I doubt many of us know or care about the schisms and intrigue that happened within the Russelite movement in the late 1800's / early 1900's so it is good if the books can have the maximum impact while they still relate to the current WTS organization.

  And it is at this point that Ray's book could prove to be useful.

  For all those "activists" that want to make sure that Ray's actions and ideas stay current and available - someone who is sincere about it can write another book that is a commentary on Ray's book (and include portions of it under "fair use") and write an update on the WTorg. And that is how fair use can be applied and Ray's content still be available.

  People can put some effort into making sure that Ray's work doesn't die out - by writing their own book about Ray's book.
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  1009

  Let's be honest with each other: nobody wants to make profit of Ray's book. Cedars does not have a webshop were he sold a few hundred copies, and he didn't plan that either. So we're not talking about stealing here, but about making it available to the public again.

  The content of CoC is way bigger than the person Raymond Franz. The silence of the copyright owner is reprehensible. This books saves lifes! You and me cannot write a book with the same influence; impossible! It MUST be made available. If the copyright owner doesn't care about reprinting it (until now she wasn't), the book should be made available to the public domain.

  You can pharisaic about the copyrights, but personally I believe that the copyrights system in general is outdated. Franz didn't write the book for money and knowledge should be freely available (or at least in return of the costs of making it available).
  
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  Oubliette

  personally I believe that the copyrights system in general is outdated.

  Easy to say when it is not your property in question.
  
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  1009

  OK, the opinion 'that the copyrights system in general is outdated' perhaps needs a little more explanation.

  I work for my money, and an artist deserves money for his work too. The earnings of my work of today are however limited. My boss doesn't pay me next year for the work I do today. And my children certainly will not be payed 50 more years for the same work. Publishing a certain work and earning money with it whole your life + 50 years, is a weird system.

  The copyright system is an invention of the 19th century. We, however, are living in the information age. The availability of information is crucial to solve problems. So information should be freely available. Withholding information is immoral. In this age it's also impossible to avoid the making of copies. The music, movie, and publishing industries are struggling with this. And believe me: in the end they will loose the battle.

  So, that's why I think the copyright system is outdated. It should be reinvented. It should respect the makers work and guarantee a reasonable income for the maker (and not for others).