Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Jews do not believe that gathering wood on the Sabbath is or ever was a capital offense.

    The account in Torah at Numbers 15:32-34 tells about the stoning of a man who was caught gathering wood on Shabbat, but his sentence doesn't match anything that Jews know about Torah and the Sabbath. According to the Mishna (Shabbat ch.7), gathering is not a type of work forbidden on the Sabbath.

    Therefore the account in Numbers is NOT stating that gathering wood is forbidden on the Sabbath (note there is no law that states this in Scripture). The man perhaps was doing something either in the way he gathered wood or the reason why he gathered wood that caused him to be stoned.

    People often read this text in Numbers as if this man was old and frail, and he was suffering, perhaps cold, and thus needed wood. But this isn't likely as he was likely surrounded by family and neighbors. The man might have been rich, powerful, and he may have been forcing others to gather wood.

    Recall that the account starts out by saying that Israel is in the desert wilderness in verse 32. Why? We know this. They aren't in Egypt and we know they have yet to reach the promised land. Perhaps the man was doing something that caused great hardship, disrespect, and even raised quite a bit of eyebrows in the community. Note that the entire camp of countless Israelites gets involved. Why? How did the camp know that one, single man was gathering wood? Where are the witnesses? Why does verse 34 say there was "no clear decision"? No clear decision about what? The wood? The penalty?

    And this is also a short narrative stuck in the middle of laws that have nothing to do with the verse. What gives? Jews don't know.

    So no, it is not nor ever has been a capital offense in Israel to gather wood on the Sabbath. The basic principle stands in Judaism that if human need calls for it, the requirements of Sabbath rest are to be broken to avoid hardship.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    And to answer your question, which I forgot to do, since Jesus was a Jew, he would not have viewed gathering wood as a capital offense either.

    I think the idea that Jews think this is a "capital offense" comes from literalist and Fundamentalist Christian readings, like some Evangelical movements and Jehovah's Witnesses. They view their interpretation as correct, never inquire about what Jews actually believe, and then project their misunderstanding onto Judaism and its practices.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    The history of Christianity is bad, but think how worse it would be if Jesus advocated violence.

    Believe in any religion you wish, but let's not claim Jesus was a nice guy.

    “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me" (Matthew 10:34)

    Because of Jesus, families will battle each other.(Matthew 10:21)

    Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. (Matthew 5:17)

    The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us, the unchosen, will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations (19:20-21)

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  • Stevie Wonder Boy
    Stevie Wonder Boy

    David,

    I do not believe the Jews of ancient times were literalists. Literalism is I believe a Protestant idea.

    It would appear the Torah needs explanation; thus the additional writings passed down that help to explain it. Interestingly, Christ spoke clearly and plainly he needed little expounding whereas Paul, like the Torah, requires volumes to make his writings clear.

    Like the Ten Commandments, Christ needs little explaining.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    Stevie Wonder Boy : Jesus was way ahead of his time and he taught accordingly.

    What leads you to believe that Stevie?

    We are totally dependent on the words of men writing two decades after Jesus. Human memories are not accurate, and we can hardly trust any of the 'word for word' speeches that the gospel writers place in the mouth of Jesus.

    When you try to analyse what the gospel writers claim that Jesus taught, its mostly a regurgitation of existing (tradtional) Jewish beliefs and first century BCE Jewish thinking, mixed up with a few other things, for example the claims in Matthew 19, regarding divorce was really based on the Augustan (Roman) law code.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Rebel8,

    Of course a lot of "cruelties" in the Hebrew Scriptures are often based on interpretations made by Christians and others who don't think critically enough to consider the Jewish view. Are you sure they happened? Have you asked the Jews before you arrived at your conclusions?

    Like the previous poster who asked about the stoning of a wood gather, seeing it as a law against gathering wood on the Sabbath, people seem to skip over what should be the first and foremost rule about the Hebrew Scriptures: ask a Hebrew what their own writings and culture mean.

    It's like the man who spent an hour yelling at me telling me that Jews approve of genocide due to what the Bible says about Jews conquering the people of Canaan.

    He eventually stopped yelling mostly because he lost his voice in the process, but he did add: "As an atheist I find your own Jewish history self-condemning."

    "And as an atheist I gather you don't believe in God?"

    "Duh, that's what an atheist is, you moron."

    I continued: "Do you at least believe the Bible is true?"

    "Of course not," he replied. "It's just a bunch of made up stories."

    "Except for the part where it says we Jews conquered the people of Canaan, right? That part is true, right?"

    He looked at me with marked confusion. "Huh?"

    I continued. "Though you don't believe in God or the Bible, you do believe in the Bible story that says we escaped slavery in Egypt, crossed the desert, and then some how managed to overtake every single indigenous tribe and people of the Fertile Crescent, even though they outnumbered us and were our military superiors in every way? Really? How is any of that true if there is no God and the Bible is false? Where did you get the story from in the first place? From a source you don't believe in? Then why are you arguing against something you don't believe really happened?"

    This to placd before a crowd of onlookers. He left, red in the face.

    Jesus approved of the cruelties in the Old Testament? Really? By whose interpretation of it? Be careful what you argue for or against. The fool who wastes his breath arguing against the existence of Santa Claus only proves what he doesn't like, not whether a non-existent man is or isn't.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    David Jay,

    Jews do not believe that gathering wood on the Sabbath is or ever was a capital offense.

    And thus begins your rationalization:

    The account in Torah at Numbers 15:32-34 tells about the stoning of a man who was caught gathering wood on Shabbat, but his sentence doesn't match anything that Jews know about Torah and the Sabbath. According to the Mishna (Shabbat ch.7), gathering is not a type of work forbidden on the Sabbath.

    It does not matter what other books have to say on one subject so long as it's found in one.

    Therefore the account in Numbers is NOT stating that gathering wood is forbidden on the Sabbath (note there is no law that states this in Scripture).

    Circular reasoning.

    The man perhaps was doing something either in the way he gathered wood or the reason why he gathered wood that caused him to be stoned.

    Maybe he was gathering the wood to warm himself up while committing adultery? Seriously now, one would think that the real crime would be mentioned without bothering to mention something as trivial as gathering wood.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Stevie Wonder Boy, you said:

    Like the Ten Commandments, Christ needs little explaining.

    I have no beef with Jesus, even as a Jew. If you say Christ needs little explaining, that is fine with me. But you need to do a lot of explaining.

    You wrote:

    The "Law of Moses" is the law of Moses not the Law of God written on stone.

    But Jesus said: "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"--John 5:46-47.

    You are obviously very wrong about what you write and believe. Jesus here states that "Moses..wrote about me." In other words, Moses wrote prophecy about Jesus. And as Scripture says: "No prophecy ever came by human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Peter 1:21) If Moses who prophesied about Jesus did so in the Torah, in the Law of Moses, but this is not of God, then how can Jesus be right? Jesus said that Moses wrote about him? Obviously Jesus is here saying that the Law of Moses is from God. And if the Law of Moses is inspired of God, then it is also the Law of God.

    At Mark 7:10 Jesus states that "Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother.’" Those words, "honor your father and your mother" are one of the Ten Commandments, but here Jesus says that came from Moses.

    At Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus teaches: "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." And then he lists them: "You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

    "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is not one of the Ten Commandments, yet Jesus views them as one the commandments we need to keep. At Mark 10:19 Jesus says one of the commandments is "you shall not defraud," but that isn't true. The laws about loving your neighbor is found in Leviticus 19:18 and the law against defrauding is at Deuteronomy 24:14.

    The words "law" and "commandment" are used interchangeably by Jesus to refer to the entire Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. Jesus sees them all as the same thing, inspired by God, and foretelling his coming.

    And remember Jesus added about Moses: "If you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:47) Obviously his writings are supposed to be believed in as inspired of God, God's Laws, and necessary to be believed in as such as a requisite to believing Jesus' words.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Village Idiot,

    To rationalize about something means to believe in what you are explaining. I don't necessarily agree with this or any explanation I offered here.

    One thing people tend to never read from me, though I repeat it again and again, is that I try to stay extremely objective. I am not offering up my opinions or my beliefs. Note carefully how I word things. Unless I say it's my opinion don't think it is.

    I may be Jewish, a practicing Jew, but my views don't necessarily match anything I write unless I say they do. I note a lot of people assume I am writing what I believe because they can't seem to write about anything except in line with their own convictions.

    I take into account that my personal convictions may not be right on the matter. Thus I offer what I know is taught on a particular subject if I have that information available.

    But this is not my rationalization. It is merely the explanation as to why Jews don't see this as a law. There is no law in Judaism that lines up with what happened in Numbers. Just because I repeat the Jewish theological stand on the matter doesn't mean I believe it.

    If you believe it is circular, get off your the Internet and argue with a rabbi about it. I can't try to rationalize about something I don't believe in.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    David_Jay,

    So you're basically playing the Devil's advocate?

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