Where are the EXJW Feminist Philosophers?

by Luther bertrand 90 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  alecholmesthedetective

  I lost my respect for a number of so-called feminists who daily wrote Guardian articles on matters such as how Professor Tim Hunt's remarks were misogynistic and he should be pilloried and expelled from the human race, or how some poor Hollywood actresses were not paid the same as men, or how a disgusting lawyer perved on a barrister's LinkedIn photo and had the temerity to send her a message complimenting her on how stunning she looked, and then when a thousand so-called refugees attacked women in Cologne over the turn of the year, with some women being raped, and hundreds of similar incidents happened over Europe at the same period, in other words, an undeniably massive example of rape culture and a backward and misogynistic attitude towards women – as had been demonstrated in Tahrir Square during the protests in 2011 – then what was the response of those feminists? Absolute silence.
  
  It took them eight days to come up with tripe such as this: 'Young German women thankfully enjoy historically unprecedented economic and sexual freedom, with their expensive smartphones and their right to celebrate New Year’s Eve however they want. The same isn’t always true of young male migrants exchanging life under repressive regimes, where they may at least have enjoyed superiority over women, for scraping by at the bottom of Europe’s social and economic food chain.'
  
  So, no. The hypocritical feminism which quickly throws women under the bus when Islamists come along should not go unchallenged.
• 

  tiki

  I think it is not a "feminist" issue but a vestige of old patriarchal societies...and they still exist in Islam...all too strongly. Women and children are not properties of the males...but humans with rights and deserving of dignity and fair treatment. Yes, I agree that the wt society is highly patriarchal in structure and that is one key reason they are so tolerant of pedophiles. The adult male takes precedence over a child. So...regarding the use of children in their cartoons...I see it as just another way of perpetuating the adult male superiority and denigrating children and women.
• 

  TD

  For those who are trying to reduce the future growth of the cult and shrink it now, publicizing the misogyny is an effective tool. It is also important for the personal growth of ex-cultists.
  

  It would be a shame to allow external debates to drown out this important cult issue.

  I couldn't agree more, rebel8. Feminist philosophy shouldn't be confused with popular notions of feminism. I've found the views of knowledgeable scholars like Martha Nussbaum, for example, to be very reasonable and moderate compared to the media figures commonly associated with feminism.

  I still think what the OP proposes is probably a stepping-stone to a reductionist viewpoint and there are two reasons why I say this:

  The JW faith itself is an anomalous piece of the gender relations puzzle. It is miserably patriarchal and yet strongly (>60% according to PEW) female. On the surface, it does appear to be attracting a certain personality type and filling a need. (Whatever that may be.) As much as I admire and respect the late Barbara Grizzuti Harrison and enjoyed reading her take on the relationship between C.T. & Maria Russell, I'm not sure if this phenomenon is explainable in terms of the patriarchal origins of the faith. Times have changed and JW females, especially single women, and most especially, JW women with unbelieving husbands have far more options than Maria Russell ever did. Whatever it is that attracts and holds women in the JW faith today does not appear to be the constraint of patriarchy.
  

  The concept of male privilege is very valid and real, but I do not think the JW's are a particularly good example of it. They appear to be equal opportunity abusers and the so-called 'privileges' of JW males are often anything but enjoyable. Being torn into little pieces by a CO behind closed doors in terms just short of profanity cannot possibly be pleasant and is a side of the JW faith that women appear to be insulated from to some degree. (Judging by the sheer number of active JW females willing to argue over whether this actually happens.) A JW male can opt out of this system by not "reaching out," but then he must contend with the social stigma. (e.g. The steady stream of hot, steaming guilt, implication that he's a failure, etc.)

  Again, I'm not dismissing feminist philosophy or feminism itself, I'm just pointing out that the JW's appear to be neither fish nor fowl as the saying goes.
  
• 

  Heaven

  I am a woman but not 'trained' in philosophy nor feminism. I know what I like and what I want. I was raised in the religion but was never baptized. For what it's worth, here are my 2 cents.
  

  Misogyny is one of the main reasons I knew, as a teenage girl, I could not be a Jehovah's Witness. If you've read the Bible, then you know misogyny is a major theme in this foundational book of the various Christian religions. It is not a stretch to see the application of it in many religions, and not just Christian ones.

  As a JW, the expectation for me to live in subjugation to my husband turned my stomach and made me quite angry. It certainly wasn't what I wanted. I watched my Mother's individuality vanish under the oppressiveness of this religion. She got to a point where she couldn't even make decisions, heaping this responsibility solely on my Father's shoulders. I never wanted that. I value freedom too highly. Subjection is too costly a price for me to pay.
  

  Have you researched the origins of slavery and Patriarchy? This might be an appropriate starting point. Not all societies or belief systems use Patriarchy/slavery/misogyny but there were decisions made in the ancient past in certain parts of the world to adopt this. And not just men, but women also, had a hand in instrumenting the inception of Patriarchy. Why? One reason/theory ... to bring stability to a region's warring tribes. Marry the women from one warring tribe into the other tribe and suddenly, you're fighting your kin. I have yet to find out why the decision was to exchange women instead of men or children, but this is what I have found thus far.
  
• 

  slimboyfat

  TD you seem to be making an argument that JWs are not a typical patriarchal system because many men have it rough too. In particular men who don't climb the tree. But I wonder, isn't that also in fact a typical feature of patriarchal systems? That you get men with different status levels and the men at the bottom have it pretty poor?

  Genuine lol Cofty at how you made an extreme comment against current feminism on the first page and then declared yoir view "uncontroversial".

  Actually I don't agree with feminism at all as far as I understand it. I used to think it made sense. In particular I was a big fan of Germaine Greer. But a turning point for me was watching the whole of The Town Bloody Hall, with Susan Sontag in the audience (beautiful woman), and Norman Mailer trying to bring order to the chaos. Norman Mailer was correct and for the reasons that Germaine Greer herself gave way back in the 1970s. Gender relations is a zero sum game. Any right granted to women is at the expense of male privilege, there is no way around this. I don't see any way around it in practice either though. How can you argue against equal rights? But let's not pretend it advantages men in any way. I'm no reactionary. I think we need something radically new. There's no going back to religion keeping people in their place. We were talking about epiphenomena on another thread. In terms of society I believe in the material dialectic deterministic view of society. I don't think there's a significant feedback of superstructure to the base. Material conditions determine culture at a deep level. I am persuaded that equal rights (for women, homosexuals, and so on) is an epiphenomenon of late capitalism. If the system fails I doubt the "gains" will persist. Having said that it's a pretty resilient system. But we live in uncertain times. Unlike Cofty I'm not,going to declare my view "uncontroversial" I'll just say that even though unpopular it is plainly the gospel truth.
• 

  TD

  sbf,
  

  But I wonder, isn't that also in fact a typical feature of patriarchal systems? That you get men with different status levels and the men at the bottom have it pretty poor?

  If I'm not mistaken, that is a common counter-observation to mainstream feminist thought made by sociologists like Roy Baumeister for example. He argues that patriarchal systems have benefited the Genghis Khan's and King Solomon's throughout history but they have hurt the vast majority of men, often reducing them to the status of expendable drones and cannon fodder.
  

  I don't disagree with that entirely and in the context of this thread, the numbers do seem to support the idea of male discontent within the JW faith, but I also believe that it's difficult to explain a system as heartily endorsed and supported by women as the JW faith appears to be in terms of patriarchy.
  

  I do agree with feminism, but would qualify that to include the more progressive thinkers today. --People like Sheryl Sandberg , who points out that equality is far more than simply demanding equal treatment.
  
• 

  slimboyfat

  Now you appear to be making the argument that a system that women like can't be said to be patriachal. But hang on, lots of women down history have loved patriachal systems! Hitler was a hit with the ladies, because not in spite of the "children, church, kitchen" ideology. And it was old women rather than old men you'd once often hear say, "at least the trains ran on time under the Fuehrer". Some women love the certainties of patriarchy. Not all women of course, but certainly enough to explain why many are drawn to male dominated bastions within modern society such as conservative sects. These women want men to look up to, are comfortable with well defined gender roles, and value security above so-called freedoms handed to them by late capitalism and its promise of "equality".
• 

  Xanthippe

  From the perspective of a born-in female JW I intensely disliked the patriarchal system but I thought it was imperfect men misinterpreting God's directions. I was sure God never meant for us to be patronised and sidelined. I thought it would all be sorted out in the new system.

  Also don't forget that many women support the elder and MS hierarchy because that's the only way they get any respect, from being the wife of one of these guys. Not because they think it's brilliantly designed.

  As for women converts I can only guess that many women join because they want a paradise future for their children. They have no concept of the extent of the JW patriarchal system until they are too involved to get out. They don't run to it with open arms. They see it as a flawed but necessary system to get the preaching done and the great crowd gathered in. In the new system everything will be put right when Jesus takes over.

  Just because women accept flawed systems and try and work with them it doesn't mean they love the system, it means they want to survive.
• 

  TD

  Now you appear to be making the argument that a system that women like can't be said to be patriachal.

  Not at all. "Miserably patriarchal" was the term I used to describe the JW faith. -But that observation is not synonymous with the term "patriarchy" in the context of feminist philosophy. No one denies that much of human society has been patriarchal, (Abrahamic faiths being no exception) but there is not universal agreement on how and why this happened.
  

  Some women love the certainties of patriarchy.

  Some give that appearance, which is why I said, "On the surface, it does appear to be attracting a certain personality type and filling a need." What percentage of the female population would fit this description though? I would guess that it's pretty small in Western countries today and consequently would probably be regarded in feminist circles as something of an aberration. --An anomalous piece of the gender relations puzzle.
• 

  cofty

  Gender relations is a zero sum game. - SBF

  Not entirely. I am a man who wants his daughter to enjoy all the rights and privileges that men have.