Rebels and Red Coats - Native Americans & Blacks in the American Revolution

by Simon 69 Replies latest jw friends

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  teenyuck

  Now, if you want to argue that slavery for an extra almost 100 years was not suffering then be my guest. I think both groups suffered and to some degree this had to do with the war. The Native American siding with the British certainly fed into the American psyche that they were 'the enemy' and deserved to be killed ... it excused the genocide that followed. If you are saying that they would have been treated exactly the same if they had sided with the Americans then what does that say about the sort of people the Americans were?

  My opinion...

  Slavery continued because people were greedy. Since we cannot guess what would have happened, we cannot say that slaves would not have been freed if they had risen against the British. Same thing with the American Indians. But, based upon the fact they fought a bloody civil war to end it, they would not have. That says they (The American British/Dutch/German/Irish/Spanish/French/Etc) were greedy bastards. Glad I am not decended from them....

  The American British/Dutch/German/Irish/Spanish/French/Etc. who set out to tame the *west* and take away more land from the Indians did not care who they sided with in any war. They just wanted the land. They came in with land grants from politicians and pushed the Indians off (and killed them)....

  What this says about the sort of people the Americans is the same thing it says about the William the Conq...Oh, I'll leave him out of the discussion.

  It is the same principal. The guy with the bigger weapon, who knows how to use it and can gather more man power, wins.

  I don't think the treatment of blacks and Indians had anything to do with the revolution. It just had to do with one group thinking they were better. There is too much historical evidence pointing in that direction. Even the dubs bought into it....

  I am sure the same attitudes exist in other western countries. They just are loathe to let the secret escape lest they sound/be like America....
• 

  refiners fire

  By the way Bridgette. For being so rude and insulting TJ deserves a good spanking. Eg: the "drinking" reference.

  Looks like the boss has dished it out. lol.
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  Simon

  Teenyuck. You need to actually read the information before replying. If you did, you would see that yes, the British did fight the Indians (the Indian wars) many years prior to the revolution but that they then put the brakes on the expansion and negotiated with the indians which was one of the 'abominable acts' that the colonials railed against. There are lots of interesting stories of post-revolution American indians including a 1,200 mile trek one group made to try to reach British Canada, only to be caught 40 miles from the border. The transcript of the surrender speach made by the chief is very moving and you can hear the anguish as he describes how tired they are of being hunted and seeing their children cold and starving.

  The treatment of the indigenous population by the new Americans is well documented and contrasts with the much better treatment and respect of treaties they were afforded in Canada. My opinion is partly based on actually having spoken to some of the descendents who live there and what their opinion of the British was / is.

  And as for fighting a civil war "to end slavery"? Please tell me you're joking! Ending slavery was used as a tool in the war by the Yankees to weaken the Confederate south who relied on them. It was not the reason for fighting the war.
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  obiwan

  This may be way off topic, but when the French were trying to take a stab at the America's, there were plenty of Indian alliance's to go with it. There purpose of course was to get rid of the British.I'm not disagreeing with the possiblity that you give Simon. I'm just trying to show other instances of Indian alliance's. These alliance's were to further thier cause, support the British and get rid of the settlers, support the French and get rid of the British. I know I'm going to receive alot of flack for saying this, but I truely believe the suffering that Native Americans and the Black community have endured are at the hands of past and present Americans for the most part. That's not to say all Americans treat Native Americans and the Black Community as lesser individuals, it's just a generaliztion.
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  teenyuck

  And as for fighting a civil war "to end slavery"? Please tell me you're joking! Ending slavery was used as a tool in the war by the Yankees to weaken the Confederate south who relied on them. It was not the reason for fighting the war.

  Gone with the Wind was historical wasn't it?

  I agree with everything and read everything Simon.

  I am still trying to understand how this translates to today. How does this affect what is happening with race relations in America today? At least from your perspective?
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  obiwan

  Teeny, I think,and remember I say think, the jist of what Simon has presented id once the wheels get rolling thier hard to stop. So, once the slavery and mistreatment started, it's been difficult to stop, to this day. Just an idea.
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  teenyuck

  but I truely believe the suffering that Native Americans and the Black community have endured are at the hands of past and present Americans for the most part. That's not to say all Americans treat Native Americans and the Black Community as lesser individuals, it's just a generaliztion.

  Obi, that is so generalized, it is true.

  I don't know any Native Americans personally. At least I don't think I do. So I can honestly say I have never treated them as lesser individuals...

  We have about 15 black families within 3 blocks from our home. 1 lives next door and 1 lives across the street. I treat them no differently then the other neighbors. They are invited to all barbeques, all card parties, etc. They are just like *everyone else*. We talk about work, our houses, the other neighbors and what is going on with the area in general.

  What should *I/we* be doing differently to treat black/Native Americans better? I honestly don't know. My neighbors seem happy. Are they really unhappy and just waiting to lash out and hurt the white people for the injustices of the other white people in the world?
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  Simon

  re: the French (and the Spanish too who were also involved to some extent). One thing the Indians had always been able to do was play one European power off against the others. With the revolution this ended.
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  Guest 77

  Simon, could you fill me in on 'why' the Indians played on one European power against the other when they were the landowners? Are you sure it wasn't the Europeans playing against the Indians to steal their land?

  Guest 77
• 

  Mary

  And as for fighting a civil war "to end slavery"? Please tell me you're joking! Ending slavery was used as a tool in the war by the Yankees to weaken the Confederate south who relied on them. It was not the reason for fighting the war.

  Some say the war was fought because of "States Rights" and not because of slavery. However, the main thing the southern States wanted in their "States Rights" was to continue slavery; the North wanted it to end or at least not expanded any further west. The South said 'no way' and the rest is history. Interestingly, Abraham Lincoln didn't actually make slavery the issue for the war until well after the war had begun; his main concern was keeping the Union together and he actually stated at the beginning of the war that if he could keep the Union together without freeing the slaves, he would do it. Many Southerners may have agreed that slavery was outdated, but in reality they didn't know what to do with them if they were freed and they certainly didn't relish the idea of equality with their former slaves if they were in fact, freed.

  An interesting topic that began 140 years and has never really been resolved.