How far will they go? (page 2)

Gorbatchov

It was just a question. I’m not mad and not insane.

Free to ask what I want, isn’t it?

😜

G.

Just because an organisation has survived problems in the past doesn’t mean it will survive problems in the future. That’s illogical. It’s like saying that because I survived measles as a child, therefore I won’t die of another illness tomorrow. It just doesn’t follow.

Where history is relevant is looking for trends and comparisons. On this front JWs resemble other organisations that have collapsed and many longstanding trends indicate they are in deep trouble. The fact that they may have survived this or other crisis or scandal decades ago is irrelevant to the current situation.

JaniceA

The WT has the advantage of being a religion with over a century. It haste disadvantage of being built in a poor foundation of false prophecy and unsustainable business practices. How long will their money keep them going when their base has died out? They are no more indestructible than sears or Montgomery wards. They will continue to dwindle until no one really cares what happens to them like MANY churches which just quietly go into obscurity.

_Morpheus

Of course your free to ask, gorby. Im also free to point out how insane it is to consider the org planning and following through on a cold blooded murder over some imaginary piece of information that could ruin them. Its ridiculous. Someone suggested a month or so ago that the gb may assassinate those who claim to be annointed. That is also stupid and beyond the pale moronic. These things must be called what they are if the real discussions are to have any validity.

Oh slim one.... i feel a major thread derailment coming.... but why not!

Just because an organisation has survived problems in the past doesn’t mean it will survive problems in the future. That’s illogical. It’s like saying that because I survived measles as a child, therefore I won’t die of another illness tomorrow. It just doesn’t follow.

Terrible illustration. My point could well be expressed as “they survived chicken pox once and will do so again”.... but your illustration has no correlation.

Where history is relevant is looking for trends and comparisons. On this front JWs resemble other organisations that have collapsed and many longstanding trends indicate they are in deep trouble. The fact that they may have survived this or other crisis or scandal decades ago is irrelevant to the current situation.

sigh... slim, again, i asked for comparable examples. You offered none. There are none. Your dead wrong about them ‘being in decline’ overall. They claim 8 million members and that isnt shrinking. Show me where membership is declining. All you can point to is a slowing down in growth. Hate to break it to you but growth is still growth. We can play games with ‘adjusted for population growth and adjusted for net births and deaths’ etc etc but the fact is they are still slowly growing. More members today than yesterday.

That isnt decline.

Again, i never said they are invulnerable, Your setting up a strawman. They could fall apart by 5pm est today. The earth could crash into the sun at 4:59 est today. Im saying neither is happening today. Both will happen eventually, but not in our life time.

Thats the differance between us slim. You want them to fail so badly you see whatever you need to and wish it so much you believe it has already happened or will happen soon, depending on what day it is... i believe they will fall as all organizations and institutions and governments and civilizations do... one day. Just not soon.

@janice- please refer to everything i just said to slim.

sparrowdown

It's impossible to know "how far they'd go" since much of what they do is done in secret.

They appear to have no scruples when it comes to protecting themselves against abuse victims legally, all their so-called christian qualities evaporate so quick makes you wonder if they were ever really christian to begin with.

They are Borg first second and third and I don't know where ethics falls on their list of core values if at all which would possibly be their only restraint from doing something completely nefarious.

Bottom line; I think they will do what can get away with to survive but they're not completely stupid either.

Wakanda

would they kill?

The blood policy has killed way more than Jonestown. Also, lots of people kill themselves when learning the real truth, or from shunning.

I know you mean more cloak and dagger, mob action stuff, but that ain't their thing.

sparrowdown

They seem to behave more like the Mob than a group of "loving concerned humble bible students just seeking to do the right thing" when threatened so... Do they actually need to kill someone when they have programmed them to "kill" themselves either literally through WT assisted no-blood suicide or WT assisted deep deression from being ostracized from the tribe and persecuted for telling the truth about it?

Either way a death of self occurs literally or figuratively. Becoming "apostate" is the struggle to regain the lost self.

Sorry I slipped into philosophy for a minnie there, back online now though lol.

_Morpheus

Drawing moral equivalencies between the blood policy and what gorby describes clouds the issue and obsecures the base line question.

Gorby is asking if they would plan and commit a cold blooded murder to cover-up some “information”. There is no information conceivable that would bring the cult down. Make somthing up and lets play the scenario out.... not only is the concept of some single piece of information that brings the org down silly, to suggest they would commit murder over it is beyond silly.

The blood policy is convincing someone to kill themself over a religious belief. Thats been happening since the dawn of time. alahu akbar and all that.

Its a false comparison and, at the risk of repeating myself, when we give credence to this sort of stupid we devalue all real criticisms of the org.

slimboyfat

Number of congregations declined in Germany and United States last year. That is real decline. And they have been declining in Japan and elsewhere for a while. I have argued for years that congregation numbers are the best measure of size and growth, long before the numbers started dropping. Watch that space. With all the consolidation going on now, next year’s figures should be fascinating. If WT release the figures next year, that is.

Census returns in Canada and Australia also show declines in those self-identifying as JWs. My own observation is that attendances at conventions locally are down at least 10% from the peak.

Plus there is very good census data (shared by shepherdless) to show that the average age of JWs is climbing rapidly. I see the same in congregations and at conventions, and other posters have observed the same. Increasing age is a very reliable indicator of future decline in religious activity across many different groups such as Anglicans, Methodists and Church of Scotland in the UK.

I don’t want JWs to fail. I want them to reform. And collapse might prompt that to happen. But actually I argued for years on this forum that JWs enjoyed good growth, because compared with most other religious groups that was true! But when the trends started to change I changed my view.

_Morpheus

Lol oh brother ... yes you have argued that and many have pointed out how rediculious it is. Cut them up any way you want. Congregation number is arbitrary and ephemeral. It means nothing. Total pubs (membership) is the ONLY number that counts. Congregations mean nothing. Deep down you know this but it gives you something to point to so you cling to it... im not going to lead the sanity charge on this today. Tilting at that windmill will have to fall to someone else today.

How far will they go?

Share this