Nicolaou: let's take a look at Ezekiel 16. Vs 46- 50 states the reason for Sodoms destruction. They were care free and had an abundance, but they didn't help those in need. If you've ever read the apocrypha, the books of jasper and jubalees go into greater exposition of the state of that city. But remember something, and a narrow view will make me sound horrible so, try to think outside the box on this one. Children are only as innocent as the people raising them. Even in our day and age, there's recent history of 5 year olds murdering other children because they could. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to try it. They were influenced by authority figures. At any rate, if you drop down to vs 53-55 we see that sodom and Samaria are promised to return to thier former estate to humiliate Isreal, because she had committed more wrong than her two sisters. I can't off the top of my head remember where they are but there are vs in the old testament that give us evidence God had dealings with the natiins around, personal dealings, and they didn't listen. He's never nkt given people ample time to change thier ways. Even Sodom surley had time to change and to save themselves,, her women and children. For an example on time let's look at two. In Noah's day there was a flood. But the people had 120 years to turn around, and they could have prevented such a catastrophe. They had 120 years. They refused. The death of themselves, their women and children, that was all on them. Contrast that with Nineveh. They turned around immediately. Then johah had to be corrected because he wanted them to be, as Tony Morris prays for, split open hot dogs. He couldn't see the forgiveness given to them and thier change in attitude was a good thing. Nineveh was able to spare her women and children, and in record timing. We all have a choice. As adults our choices effect our children. The way they think and act. I may not agree with everything in any religion, let alone watchtower. But ill say this. Russell did have a comforting thought regarding Sodom. That she will have a day to repent. They didn't know of yehoshua and the promises through him. But they'll recieve their chance in the world to come. And I chose to believe that. Aligning ourselves with his will through prayer means we may not understand right now, like when your being trained on a new position at work. But we don't get ahead of the teacher because we have other tasks to learn right now, and our other questions will be answered when they need to be. But we certainly don't pray for the destruction of people. I'd rather pray for sodom to come back and her children have a second chance in accord with prophecy, rather than she continue to rot in the earth. Id rather pray that Hitler have a second chance, because his childhood was so messed up it turned him into the destructive person he was and I know he could have done better. I'd rather pray for the salvation of Satan himself, because God desires none to be destroyed but desires all to attain repentance. (2 pet 3:9) And I choose to believe that verse means that even the devil could have a chance if he wanted to repent and take the opportunity. Sorry this is so long winded. I'm not trying to preach at anyone or argue. This is just my thought process as I read all your comments. If you want a simplified version and on statements I agree on, see boogerman's comment above mine. I'm in agreement with their statements. Like I've stated before im not infallible so I hope nobody gets to worked up over my thoughts if we disagree
What Does Prayer Actually Do?
by punkofnice 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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nicolaou
Judgerussellford: Children are only as innocent as the people raising them.
I'm rushing out of the house now but will respond to this disgraceful comment later
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Judgerussellford
I will also say this. Nobody ever born on this earth, was born wanting to be hated, disliked, or wanting to hate other people. Hate is such a cruel thing. The verse I cited in 2 Peter brings me back down when someone angers me, because even the ancient of days doesn't revel in the destruction of others, so why should I have a destructive hatred towards others. I try to teach this to people at work through my actions and words. Thats why I love the ex jw community and after a few years decided to join a forum like this. Because I've only met one malicious apostate in my life. All the others really care about the ones still in and hope for a safe exit from the corruption while they still have time, much like I see God's view on us in 2 Peter. Messiah said you are my deciples if you have love amongst yourselves. Theres a lot of love within communities like this one, that reach out with love for the ones still left behind. And nicolaous: if I see where you are going with this let me explain. After a few years, me and my brother raised ourselves. Its not just parents that raise children. It's teachers, it's people in churches and teacher/friends at school and strangers met over social media. Its whatever influences them to make a choice with a free thinking mind at any age. That five year old I mentioned before, back in the 89s or 9os, murdered a 3 year old cold blood because he could. Theres been teenagers murder their friends because they simply didn't want to be friends with them anymore, instead of taking the time to say, you know, "hey Debbie, listen were gonna stop being your friend because we just aren't clicking anymore". And there is many instances of atrocities that I won't comment due to the community guidelines that young people have committed at many different various ages.. its truly insane but thats just the kind of world we live in.. no age is left out for the opportunity to do bad things.. look at how young some kids are when they get caught up in gangs in the projects in bigger cities. I know grown men whove slung ice on the streets since they were ten because of what influenced them when they were that age.. its all about background and environment. I'm not placing blame on children necessarily, but at what point should the child start taking responsibility and listening to morals and to conscience?
Children to me is a broad spectrum because it goes from infant to almost any age.. in my experiance not far past someone's 30s. There are people like my brother-in-law who are in their 20s who are children because they still act like children. I'm nearly isolating instances where the children made thjer own free choices based on who was around to influence them without the ability to weigh thier morals properly. Every person around a child in thier days of being reared do in fact raise them in one way or another. Even who's on the TV and music. So when I say a child is only as innocent as the person raising them, with this above explanation, I hope this clears up any anger I may have raised in you, but I stand by my statement and still would never pray for anyone's destruction, let alone a child
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FedUpJW
Apart form not actually doing anything, those doing the praying allow themselves to do NOTHING FURTHER !
Exactly! I said pretty much the same thing some time ago when I still attended meetings. I told an elder that instead of the prayers asking God to, "Help those who are not here due to personal difficulties to know we looovve them," that perhaps they should ask, "Give us the insight to notice the struggles of one another and take note of those not here with us, and then move us to take action and do something for them or with them so they know we care about them," because God does not magically perform miracles. He told me that I was showing a lack of faith by not trusting God to help them.
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punkofnice
judgy - And I choose to believe that verse means...............
And that's what bothers me.
Choosing to believe isn't the same as knowing.
If those verses were of divine origin, there would be no choosing to believe. It would be obvious when read, exactly what it means.
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Judgerussellford
I can see your views punkofnice. Its easier to get caught in beliefs over facts. As a believer thats a fine line to walk for me. Because facts do Trump beliefs as well as compliment them. Just because I believe something doesn't meen im right. I will never claim to be infallible. But we all believe a lot of things. Folks I work with believe in one politician over another. Yet I believe they are all just awful. In many instances that belief is split right down the middle. Bjt some beliefs seemingly taken on faith, are taken so because of promises and prophocey fulfilled. And even at that most only believers will believe that. Its quite a tumultuous circle really. But even scripture is not for private interpretation, and the Bible interprets itself. So in a sense when I say i choose to believe, I could be on some shakey ground for being a believer. At the same time I always try to remember Roman's 12:2. That we should "prove to ourselves". Of course using scripture as guidelines for the proving, along with history and solid fact, otherwise the proof is not on solid ground. I do though realize theres folks on here who don't believe. And I hope sharing my thoughts doesn't get misconstrued with preaching. We've all dealt with that enough as it is
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punkofnice
Judgy. I was told once that as a believer, you'll never really find evidence for God etc.
I find that a bit hard to swallow.
I think that here, in the Western world a lot of people think 'Bible' when they think in terms of God and belief.
How do we know that Allah, Odin or Rastafari isn't the real God and we have the wrong book?
You see my dilemma?
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Phizzy
The Flying Spaghetti Monster, peas be upon him, Ramen, is the True God.
Change my mind.
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Judgerussellford
Punk: i really do. I think as a consequence of bable, we have not only confused tongues and confused beliefs, as well as confused mindsets, as I hope nicolaou sees in my statements. Allah, is the same as the Jewish and Christian God (trinity aside). Buddha was actually a man that was Christian, many people don't know or refuse to believe that. I work with a roommate of a Buddhist that can confirm this. Just like an old junkie told me one time about vehicles, "there's good and bad in all of em, just 'pends on how ya take care of em" same with beliefs. People want to be separated by them instead. We all got something right, but a lot of things wrong. In any faith or even from those who chose not to have a faith. We can all learn so much from each other. I'm not talking about one world religion don't get me wrong. But the bickering is just nonsensical. "I'm right your wrong" blah blah blah. My mom told me when I was growing up that not all jws would make it through Armageddon, and that there would be many people of different faiths that I wouldn't think that would make it. And my first girlfriends aunt told me that life is about choices and consequences, you just have to make sure you chose the right path but own up to the consequences either way. And my 2rd roommates, both lesbians, told me once that they thought they would burn for being who they are. I showed them in scripture that they were better than most Christians I knew.
You know part of your dilemma is the same as my brothers in a way. To much music, nkt enough time for it all. Maaaaaaan if you could talk to him he could teach you a thing or two about music history and bands and so much more. He'd have his own record store if he knew what was good for him. But its the same with faiths. To many of them to spend your life learning them all to see whats right. So I just learn here and there from everyone I can to do as Roman's 12:2 says. Prove to yourself. Because they all have somethings right. Not everything. But somethings
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Judgerussellford
Another thing is that we've been taught to rely on books and teachers instead of searching for ourselves. Bibles a nice guide to a believer, but we have to search for proof outside scripture also