2nd amendment right ... where should it end?

by Simon 166 Replies latest social current

  • Simon
    Simon
    Maybe its a good thing but too many of you live in a good little law abiding citizen bubble. If were out there in the real real world you might see the world very differently

    I can guarantee you that it's harder to buy something when it's illegal than when it is legal (except for streaming TV shows if you live in Canada).

    It's not about living in a bubble, it's simply recognizing that a law doesn't have to have a 100% obedience or enforcement rate to be of benefit.

    We have laws against speeding and other traffic rules but people still speed. Does that mean we should abolish speed limits and let people blast through red lights? You're welcome to your fantasy bubble but some of us see benefit in laws because it's what we need to build some semblance of a civilized society whether or not everyone will keep to all of them all the time (hint: they don't - if people did you wouldn't need a law).

    If we can only have laws that everyone abides by then why would you ever have any police, a judicial system, prisons etc...

    But you think *we* are the ones in a bubble? You are on fantasy island ... floating in space!

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange
    2nd amendment right ... where should it end?

    At the border.

    No guns in Canada or Mexico.

    Keep your nose outta our business.

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    Here's an interesting article.........

    The Second Amendment was Ratified to Preserve Slavery

    Tuesday, 15 January 2013 By Thom Hartmann, Truthout

    In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the "slave patrols," and they were regulated by the states.

    In Georgia, for example, a generation before the American Revolution, laws were passed in 1755 and 1757 that required all plantation owners or their male white employees to be members of the Georgia Militia, and for those armed militia members to make monthly inspections of the quarters of all slaves in the state. The law defined which counties had which armed militias and even required armed militia members to keep a keen eye out for slaves who may be planning uprisings.

    As Dr. Carl T. Bogus wrote for the University of California Law Review in 1998, "The Georgia statutes required patrols, under the direction of commissioned militia officers, to examine every plantation each month and authorized them to search 'all Negro Houses for offensive Weapons and Ammunition' and to apprehend and give twenty lashes to any slave found outside plantation grounds."

    It's the answer to the question raised by the character played by Leonardo DiCaprio in Django Unchained when he asks, "Why don't they just rise up and kill the whites?" If the movie were real, it would have been a purely rhetorical question, because every southerner of the era knew the simple answer: Well regulated militias kept the slaves in chains.

    Sally E. Haden, in her book Slave Patrols: Law and Violence in Virginia and the Carolinas, notes that, "Although eligibility for the Militia seemed all-encompassing, not every middle-aged white male Virginian or Carolinian became a slave patroller." There were exemptions so "men in critical professions" like judges, legislators and students could stay at their work. Generally, though, she documents how most southern men between ages 18 and 45 - including physicians and ministers - had to serve on slave patrol in the militia at one time or another in their lives.

    And slave rebellions were keeping the slave patrols busy.

    By the time the Constitution was ratified, hundreds of substantial slave uprisings had occurred across the South. Blacks outnumbered whites in large areas, and the state militias were used to both prevent and to put down slave uprisings. As Dr. Bogus points out, slavery can only exist in the context of a police state, and the enforcement of that police state was the explicit job of the militias.

    If the anti-slavery folks in the North had figured out a way to disband - or even move out of the state - those southern militias, the police state of the South would collapse. And, similarly, if the North were to invite into military service the slaves of the South, then they could be emancipated, which would collapse the institution of slavery, and the southern economic and social systems, altogether.

    These two possibilities worried southerners like James Monroe, George Mason (who owned over 300 slaves) and the southern Christian evangelical, Patrick Henry (who opposed slavery on principle, but also opposed freeing slaves).

    Their main concern was that Article 1, Section 8 of the newly-proposed Constitution, which gave the federal government the power to raise and supervise a militia, could also allow that federal militia to subsume their state militias and change them from slavery-enforcing institutions into something that could even, one day, free the slaves.

    This was not an imagined threat. Famously, 12 years earlier, during the lead-up to the Revolutionary War, Lord Dunsmore offered freedom to slaves who could escape and join his forces. "Liberty to Slaves" was stitched onto their jacket pocket flaps. During the War, British General Henry Clinton extended the practice in 1779. And numerous freed slaves served in General Washington's army.

    Thus, southern legislators and plantation owners lived not just in fear of their own slaves rebelling, but also in fear that their slaves could be emancipated through military service.

    At the ratifying convention in Virginia in 1788, Henry laid it out:

    "Let me here call your attention to that part [Article 1, Section 8 of the proposed Constitution] which gives the Congress power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States. . . .

    "By this, sir, you see that their control over our last and best defence is unlimited. If they neglect or refuse to discipline or arm our militia, they will be useless: the states can do neither . . . this power being exclusively given to Congress. The power of appointing officers over men not disciplined or armed is ridiculous; so that this pretended little remains of power left to the states may, at the pleasure of Congress, be rendered nugatory."

    George Mason expressed a similar fear:

    "The militia may be here destroyed by that method which has been practised in other parts of the world before; that is, by rendering them useless, by disarming them. Under various pretences, Congress may neglect to provide for arming and disciplining the militia; and the state governments cannot do it, for Congress has an exclusive right to arm them [under this proposed Constitution] . . . "

    Henry then bluntly laid it out:

    "If the country be invaded, a state may go to war, but cannot suppress [slave] insurrections [under this new Constitution]. If there should happen an insurrection of slaves, the country cannot be said to be invaded. They cannot, therefore, suppress it without the interposition of Congress . . . . Congress, and Congress only [under this new Constitution], can call forth the militia."

    And why was that such a concern for Patrick Henry?

    "In this state," he said, "there are two hundred and thirty-six thousand blacks, and there are many in several other states. But there are few or none in the Northern States. . . . May Congress not say, that every black man must fight? Did we not see a little of this last war? We were not so hard pushed as to make emancipation general; but acts of Assembly passed that every slave who would go to the army should be free."

    Patrick Henry was also convinced that the power over the various state militias given the federal government in the new Constitution could be used to strip the slave states of their slave-patrol militias. He knew the majority attitude in the North opposed slavery, and he worried they'd use the Constitution to free the South's slaves (a process then called "Manumission").

    The abolitionists would, he was certain, use that power (and, ironically, this is pretty much what Abraham Lincoln ended up doing):

    "[T]hey will search that paper [the Constitution], and see if they have power of manumission," said Henry. "And have they not, sir? Have they not power to provide for the general defence and welfare? May they not think that these call for the abolition of slavery? May they not pronounce all slaves free, and will they not be warranted by that power?

    "This is no ambiguous implication or logical deduction. The paper speaks to the point: they have the power in clear, unequivocal terms, and will clearly and certainly exercise it."

    He added: "This is a local matter, and I can see no propriety in subjecting it to Congress."

    James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution" and a slaveholder himself, basically called Patrick Henry paranoid.

    "I was struck with surprise," Madison said, "when I heard him express himself alarmed with respect to the emancipation of slaves. . . . There is no power to warrant it, in that paper [the Constitution]. If there be, I know it not."

    But the southern fears wouldn't go away.

    Patrick Henry even argued that southerner's "property" (slaves) would be lost under the new Constitution, and the resulting slave uprising would be less than peaceful or tranquil:

    "In this situation," Henry said to Madison, "I see a great deal of the property of the people of Virginia in jeopardy, and their peace and tranquility gone."

    So Madison, who had (at Jefferson's insistence) already begun to prepare proposed amendments to the Constitution, changed his first draft of one that addressed the militia issue to make sure it was unambiguous that the southern states could maintain their slave patrol militias.

    His first draft for what became the Second Amendment had said: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country [emphasis mine]: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."

    But Henry, Mason and others wanted southern states to preserve their slave-patrol militias independent of the federal government. So Madison changed the word "country" to the word "state," and redrafted the Second Amendment into today's form:

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State [emphasis mine], the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Little did Madison realize that one day in the future weapons-manufacturing corporations, newly defined as "persons" by a Supreme Court some have called dysfunctional, would use his slave patrol militia amendment to protect their "right" to manufacture and sell assault weapons used to murder schoolchildren.

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/13890-the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000

    If you want an honest debate about this you should do some research on what the framers of the Constitution meant by "militia." Its at least as relevant as what they meant by "firearms."

    But let's say they really meant to say that guns were only for militia. Who..... cares...! I really think the argument of holding whatever our "forefathers" said as being sacred, is completely ludicrous. These were folks who came up with guidelines for public governance that made sense at that time, based on the way life was back then.

    They were not gods, and not special or somehow chosen above all mankind to understand exactly how humans should live What they wrote is not sacred. Not only it can be modified, but it should in order to be adequate to our times. It's so silly to hear arguments that start with "But our forefathers said...." , or "What they meant was...." as if we are babies bickering about what our parents said before they left for work. How completely silly!!

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot
    Why not simply rephrase the Second Amendment to: "All citizens shall have the right to own and bear arms." Period.
  • JeffT
    JeffT
    The problem is, they are not around to ask so all you get are interpretations.

    Not really true. They left very extensive notes on what they meant by what they wrote. If you want to debate the US constitution read "The Federalist Papers." For that matter you should also read "The Anti-Federalist Papers." Its harder to find but sheds some light on what the losing side thought.

    Edited to add. The National Guard was founded in 1903.

    Berengaria, that's true, but I will note that at least some gun control efforts started as attempts to keep guns out of the hands of African-Americans.

    http://www.old-yankee.com/rkba/racial_laws.html

    http://monderno.com/monderno/if-youre-anti-gun-youre-a-racist/

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Sometimes I think the more rabid gun nuts have a Mad Max fetish, and subconsciously (or perhaps not so subconsciously) hope the world will become that way once everyone is finally armed to the teeth.

    I could be wrong.

  • TD
    TD

    Simon,

    If you realized that the only right for having guns according to the constitution is in a militia setting you may have understood why Scalia was such a nincompoop.

    How would you respond to the nincompoop's observation that this renders the Second Amendment tautological?

  • Hadriel
    Hadriel
    Sometimes I think the more rabid gun nuts have a Mad Max fetish, and subconsciously (or perhaps not so subconsciously) hope the world will become that way once everyone is finally armed to the teeth.

    Oh brother. Right everyone that owns a gun is a vigilante.

    Do you take this stand with the common chemicals in your home that can be used as poison or bombs? Do you vehemently pursue the fertilizer companies to restrict access to their materials?

    More often than not many mass murders have little to do with guns. Just look at the Boston Marathon and many many more.

    Nut jobs will do nut job things. They'll use whatever they can get their hands on and although they may be carrying a gun more often than not some other mechanism, not a gun, is used to maximize the damage.

    So I'd really like to see you folks start clamoring to ban nails, pipe, fertilizer, ammonia and the list goes on.

    Have you never camped out in the back woods? You couldn't get me out there without a weapon. On more than one occasion I've had to fire warning shots to scare off animals. Ever been camping where bears are common. You better be packing something.

    Seriously I want to see a thread started demanding the ban of nails. Every dang pipe bomb ever made has used them.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Anything can be turned into a weapon, a car, a pressure cooker, rocks, 2 x 4's, baseball bats, a bottle, a chair......... you name it and it has probably been used to hurt or kill someone.

    The problem with comparing this to guns is the power, range and accuracy of guns.

    There is a park in Colorado:

    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28466076/fatal-colorado-national-forest-shooting-highlights-growing-problem

    RAINBOW FALLS PARK — Spent shell casings and trees chewed raw by bullets litter campgrounds where families have come for decades in search of wilderness.

    It was here, in the shadows of land scarred by the Hayman fire, that Glenn Martin, a 60-year-old Monument man enjoying the holiday with his family, was killed last week by an apparently errant shot as he waited to roast marshmallows.

    ..........."I understand people need a place to shoot," said Keith Woidneck, a gun owner who prefers ranges to shooting in the wild. "But I need a place to go hike."

    I think on various levels the gun mania is completely out of control.

    A gun gives a person the means to protect themselves and their family ............but it also can put other families in danger.

    Once a gun is fired, in real surroundings, you no longer have control over the bullet.

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