Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rstrats

    Someone new looking in may know of examples.

  • David_Jay
    1. The Messiah said that three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

    Having been raised for a few years by my aunt as a JW, but being born a Jew and today back to being a practicing Jew, I can assure you that as many times that I've heard that "heart of the earth" is supposed to be some Jewish idiom, it is not.

    There is no such saying or expression in any Jewish language like that which is an idiom of any sort, not in Hebrew, not in Ladino, Yiddish, Aramaic or Arabic. We don't have such a common expression in any of our modern languages or in modern Hebrew either. I am a Sephardic Jew, and I speak Ladino and Hebrew throughout my day (and some Yiddish). I have verified this with many a rabbi and scholar, and there is no such idiomatic expression as many a Fundamentalist Evangelistic Christian claims.

    It should be noted, however, that the contrast is with Jonah not being in the belly of the fish, but Jonah recognizing that the fish was swimming deep into the depths of the waters, which Jews viewed as the Netherworld of the Dead or Sheol. Jonah thus refers not to the belly of fish as Sheol but to traveling down into Sheol by means of the fish's belly.--Jonah 2:2.

    Jesus is saying he, like Jonah, would spend three days and nights (according to Jewish reckoning) in the Netherworld.

    4. However, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.

    While I am not a Christian, and I definitely do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, and on top of that reject the idea of the Resurrection of Jesus, Jews can say "three days have passed" but only two nights have occurred. This has been common speech for Jews for thousands of years and still is to this day.

    For instance, tonight is the start of Chanukah. Jews, like me, are celebrating by lighting their first candles in their windows all around the world. But your calendar may say different if you're a Gentile. It may say Chanukah starts tomorrow.

    Well, that is true too. You see the first day of Chanukah is tomorrow because our days start at sundown and end at sundown. If you use a Gentile calendar, the first day of Chanukah is December 13. If you use a Jewish calendar it begins on December 12.

    If you use the Gentile day of reckoning and count three days of Chanukah, let's say December 13-15 you get three days but only two nights of candle lighting. Why?

    Because the Jewish candle lighting for the 13th was on the 12th and the candle lighting for the 15th counts as the Erev or eve of the 16th of December. According to Jewish counting there were three days but only two nights. Get it?

    So if Jesus was the Messiah, and if he did rise from the dead, he could have died on a Friday and risen Sunday. The colloquial speech works with Semitic dialogue about counting days. All the other stuff you wrote is just Gentile/Christian/Gregorian calendar fluff.

    People always want to make Jesus of Nazareth fit into a Christian mold. If he was the Messiah, remember, "messiah" is a Jewish concept. To understand it fully you have to let go your Gentile self.

  • smiddy3

    Thanks David ,I`m always interested to hear the Jewish point of view on the Christian Greek Scriptures and the Old Testament for that matter.

    A good question rstrats.

  • rstrats
  • rstrats

    re: "...I can assure you that as many times that I've heard that "heart of the earth" is supposed to be some Jewish idiom, it is not."

    Actually, the idiom/figure of speech/colloquialism is referring to the 3 days and 3 nights and not to the 'heart of the earth".

    re: "The colloquial speech works with Semitic dialogue about counting days."

    But was it common for Semitic dialogue to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur?

  • rstrats

    Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

  • rstrats


    You have a question directed to you in post #14.

  • Hanged Man
    Hanged Man

    Jesus is in the heart of the earth for 3 days due to the fact that the old sun (Jesus) dies at the winter solstice after being crucified on the cross of the year...and around 3 days later... the new sun starts its cycle in Capricorn......which is the Cardinal "earth" sign.

  • MrRoboto

    I can't answer the question of Jewish idioms or whether it was normal to say 3 days, 3 nights and mean something else but I can say this:

    I'm not referring to the use of symbols when I say this but if the bible was written in ways that make what it says different from what it means then we shouldn't base our belief system on it. Otherwise, at that point, you can just do what JWs and other religions do, and make it up as you see fit and start any number of cults based on your newest understanding.

    IMHO, if god wanted to tell us something, he would do it. He wouldn't make it so obfuscated so as to hide the message in shrouds of discrepancies, leaving people to figure it out on their own. Some may counter: "yeah but he can give you holy spirit to understand.." to which I say " then we don't need the written word at all, he can just make us understand and the holy spirit can teach us all things as Jesus said"

    Too bad it's all nonsense, as the many serious discrepancies (like the one cited in the OP) make super-abundantly clear.

  • Hanged Man
    Hanged Man

    All you need to the cycle.

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