Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Wouldn't what you said make the flood stories inconsistent with (not compatible with) the facts pertaining to evolution, including the ones you mentioned (including the subsequent rapid pace of evolution which would be required if a global flood really happened at the supposed timing of the event)? I do not see us as being in being in disagreement with that, pertaining to a global flood.

    But wouldn't such problems stated by you (and also believed by me) only pertain to a global flood, and not to a local flood caused by a rise of the sea level of the Black Sea prior to 4500 BCE? Some Christians (including some who are convinced of macroevolution) teach that the flood was only local, not global, and thus the only animals brought into the Ark were local animals. There is strong evidence that a local flood caused by a rise of the Black Sea was the basis for the flood story which from which the flood stories of Genesis derived from. See . The flood stories of Genesis, which culturally evolved from some earlier flood stories, very possibly have some elements of fact within them. Some scientists published content saying there is scientific evidence for such a local flood which 'inspired' the stories in Genesis.

    See the following articles (pertaining to a local flood, not a global flood):


    - [The content of this article is related to that of the above article. The two article were published on the same day. This article mentions that the marine scientist named Robert Ballard who says he found evidence of a local flood caused by the Black Sea is also "the scientist who discovered the wrecked Titanic". In the article he says he not making the claim "that this is the biblical flood", saying he doesn't know whether or not it is. But this article was published in 2000. In a later article he says it is evidence that Noah's flood happened; see the ABC News article below.]

    - [This article is from December 05, 2012. The first paragraph of that article says the following. "The story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood is one of the most famous from the Bible, and now an acclaimed underwater archaeologist thinks he has found proof that the biblical flood was actually based on real events."

  • Jeffro

    Disillusioned JW:

    Wouldn't what you said make the flood stories inconsistent with (not compatible with) the facts pertaining to evolution

    Yes, it was an elaboration, not a disagreement.

    There is strong evidence that a local flood caused by a rise of the Black Sea was the basis for the flood story which from which the flood stories of Genesis derived from.

    The fact that local floods occur in various places or that people make up stories about them is entirely mundane. The Genesis flood myth was derived from a Babylonian myth which was itself derived from an earlier Sumerian myth, most likely based on a local flood in Mesopotamia. It is unlikely the original core is from a flood from the Black Sea, but possible and entirely unremarkable that details of a later flood from that area were incorporated into the later story.

  • Jeffro


    If Adam was "made" outside the garden as it indicates, the instance when he was placed in the garden would be the start of the creation date, would it not?

    No. Obviously it’s a fictitious creation myth. But in the context of the story, Adam’s age at death is unambiguously stated, and not derived from his stated location at any particular time. Your suggestion would fall in the category of fan-fiction.

  • TonusOH

    Most civilizations were established and grew around sources of fresh water, which means that there would have been villages and cities on or near rivers and lakes. It's not unusual for rivers to have seasonal flooding, with the occasional large-scale flood that can destroy crops and buildings and take enough lives that they become part of the local lore.

    One "evidence" that is used for the validity of the global flood is that there are many flood stories around the world that purport to there having been a worldwide flood. But the fact that flooding would have been a common human experience, and the way our myths and legends develop, make it inevitable that stories about "great floods" would be so widespread across so many different cultures.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    OK, I was wrong about the idea of the Noah flood story having roots in a flooding caused the rise of the Black Sea. I had confused the idea of the Black Sea being associated with the biblical story with the idea of flooding caused by expansion of the Persian Gulf. That flooding was into what was then called Sumeria. What was once the Garden of Eden is now under a portion of the Persian Gulf. It is as I stated in a different topic thread where I said the following. '... there is some evidence for a massive local flood that wiped out lush vegetation and a human population about 9,000 to 11,000 years ago, in (or very near) what later became know as Sumeria. What do you think of the History Channel program ... called "Decoding The Past: Mysteries of the Garden of Eden"? I think it makes very convincing claims.' In the program a scientist using satellite imaging found the channels of all four of the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14 which Genesis says pinpoints the location of the Garden of Eden! But (if I remember correctly) instead of the rivers issuing out of Eden to become heads, it is where they converged into Eden. Jeffro, you are thus correct in saying the flood story based on a local flood in Mesopotamia, but it was an emense flood.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    The scientist in the History Channel program about the Garden of Eden and about the flood, is the archaeologist named Juris Zarins. says the following regarding his idea. "Zarins argued that the Garden of Eden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf (present-day Kuwait), where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers run into the sea, from his research on this area using information from many different sources, including LANDSAT images from space. In this theory, the Bible's Gihon River would correspond with the Karun River in Iran, and the Pishon River would correspond to the Wadi Batin river system that once drained the now dry, but once quite fertile central part of the Arabian Peninsula. His suggestion about the Pishon River is supported by James A. Sauer (1945–1999) formerly of the American Center of Oriental Research[10] although strongly criticized by the archaeological community." says that Zarins is an atheist! That web page mentions many of the things I saw in the History Channel program. That includes the following (as quoted from the above website).

    "Researcher Juris Zarins from Missouri State University noted that every civilization has had a creation story, and some of the stories pre-date the story told in Genesis. He wondered why so many cultures tell this story, and wondered if the Garden of Eden may have actually existed. He noted that the Bible story bears remarkable resemblances to the Epic of Gilgamesh. Some of the details are quite similar to the story of Adam and Eve. He felt the Bible stories were plagiarized by the Hebrews who heard these stories from the Sumerians who have an older creation story that is 8000 years old.

    ... There are other Sumerian tales found in the Bible, such as The Tower of Babel. Sumer is called Shinar in the Bible. Many of these early Bible stories bear remarkable resemblances to more ancient Sumerian tales. Zarins believes that the Bible is just a Hebrew version of the story of Gilgamesh, and believes that Eden is the same place as Dilmun. He also knows that the eastern shores of Arabia, near Bahrain was once a lush area, even though today it is a desert.

    ... Everyone knows where the Euphrates River is, and Hiddekel is translated Tigris in most other translations. Ethiopia may be a mistranslation. The word is actually Cush, and some other Bibles translate it as Sudan, but Zarins noted that Iran was also known as Cush. Geographically, Iran makes much more sense than either Sudan or Ethiopia. ... If one can find these two other rivers (Pison and Gihon), they’ll find Eden. Interestingly, only the Bible mentions these other two rivers. ...

    Zarins turned to Satellite photos to try to find these other two rivers. In the 1980s, satellite photos were hard to come by, but Zarins lucked out. He noted a dry channel in Saudi Arabia. On the ground, it looks just like a bunch of sand dunes and hardly looks like a river. Zarins learned that this river had water as the Ice Age was ending. Around 5-6000 BC, the area would have been lush with vegetation.

    The Persian Gulf didn’t exist in the Ice Age and was once dry land. During the Ice Age, the sea level was 200 feet deeper. Due to the runoff, the Gulf filled with water, and is just 120 feet deep at it’s deepest point. Zarins believes this river is the Pison, which flowed much further east near Basra.

    Zarins believes the fourth major river comes out of Zagros Mountains in Iran, called Karun. It originally connected to the Tigrus and Euphrates rivers until it was dammed in the 1970s. The Garden of Eden is now under water in the Persian Gulf. 8000 years ago, the climate was different, monsoon rains covered whole peninsula with rain, lush, green, so Sumerians thought Dilmun was the birth of humanity. Zarins thinks that the Tree of Knowledge was actually a story of how farming started. The narrator says,

    According to Zarins, the Garden of Eden was the home to pre-historic humans, hunter-gatherers who were able to survive purely from what they found growing naturally. But as the last Ice Age ended, the waters in the world’s oceans began to rise. Eventually this garden of paradise drowned in the flood. In its place today, we find the Persian Gulf."

    Not all of the stories of the Bible are 100% fiction. Some the biblical stories contain remnants of truth and those remnants of truth can help scientists find further knowledge of what happened in very ancient times! (a web page of a scientific organization of Christian old Earth creationist scientists, or at least of Christians that are creationist scientists which includes old Earth creationists, even day age creationists) says the following. "Juris Zarins, now retired from Southwest Missouri State University, conducted years of field research in Egypt and the Arabian Peninsula. He contends that Semitic languages arose in an Arabian nomadic setting during a period of changing climate. In an aside to his scholarly work, Zarins proposes that the garden story is based on the migrations around 5000 BC of these foraging nomads to Mesopotamia where agriculture already flourished. The resulting cultural upheaval led to an oral tradition taking the nomadic standpoint, which portrayed agriculturists as taking God’s knowledge into their own hands to exploit the power of creation. As the Gulf continued to rise, the agriculturists were forced out of Eden. Using LANDSAT photos, archaeology, linguistics, and geology, he situates Eden underneath the present Persian Gulf. Wilensky-Lanford considers this the most credible garden theory, although it has not been embraced in academia as contemporary scholars show little interest in the geography of literal creation."

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction/Update: says the American Scientific Affiliation now includes those who accept biological evolution. It says "In many ways it is this commitment to engage that ultimately transformed the ASA from its anti-evolutionary roots to its present openness to evolution as a biological theory." Instead of being a scientific organization of Christians says "The American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) is a Christian religious organization of scientists and people in science-related disciplines." That article also says "The influence of an inner circle affiliated with Wheaton College led it to reject "strict" creationism in favor first of progressive creationism and then of theistic evolution, encouraging acceptance of evolution among evangelicals."

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW (a web page of old Earth day age creationism) cites archeologist Jeffrey Rose in support of the idea that the Garden of Eden is now under the Persian Gulf. The article is by Hugh Ross and the articles says the following.

    "University of Birmingham archeologist Jeffrey Rose .... In his paper, ... points out that during the late Pleistocene epoch (150,000 to 12,000 years ago) reduced sea levels periodically exposed the “Gulf Oasis.” The Persian Gulf receded to such a degree as to bring above the surface a landmass as large as, or larger than, Great Britain. Rose explains that this landmass was well watered by four large rivers flowing at the time: the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun, and Wadi Batin. Additionally, the region was watered by fresh water springs supplied by subterranean aquifers flowing beneath the Arabian subcontinent.

    ... Rose argues that during the latter part of the last ice age a thriving civilization existed in what is now the Persian Gulf. As sea levels rose and as water rushed in through the Strait of Hormuz to fill up the Persian Gulf (see figure 1), people would have exited the Gulf Oasis and formed settlements along the rising shoreline. ... Rose also points out that the water’s rushing in to fill up the Persian Gulf and other neighboring regions could explain the many flood accounts and myths that emanate from that part of the globe.

    ... Rose’s theory fits not only the biblical account of Noah’s flood, it comports especially well with the earlier chapters of Genesis. Skeptics have long charged that the Bible’s description of the Garden of Eden brings biblical inspiration and inerrancy into question. Genesis 2 claims that the Pishon, Gihon, Tigris, and Euphrates Rivers all meet together in Eden.3 However, the Pishon and Gihon flow out from the mountains of central Arabia (Havilah) and southwest Arabia (Cush), respectively, while the Tigris and Euphrates flow out from the mountains of Ararat in Armenia and Turkey (see figure 1).

    As skeptics point out, nowhere on the planet do the four rivers come together. Their charge holds true—but only for today’s geography. All four rivers flow into different parts of the Persian Gulf and all four rivers meet together in what Rose identifies as the Gulf Oasis. As Rose points out, the Gulf Oasis was also watered by springs upwelling from subterranean aquifers. Genesis 2:6 also states that “streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.” Genesis 7:11 identifies “springs of the great deep” as part of the source of the flood waters that wreaked havoc upon the ungodly of Noah’s generation. The Gulf Oasis vindicates the unique claims Genesis makes about the Garden of Eden and its surroundings."

    I encourage people to read the rest of Ross' short article. The "About" page of Ross' website says "We believe questions and dialogue are good because truth invites and withstands testing." I wish the WT and its JW religion had that attitude! says the following about Dr. Jeff Rose. "He holds a BA in Classics, a MA in Archaeology, a second MA in Anthropology, and a PhD in Anthropology. Jeff’s interests cover a broad range of subjects: from human origins to early civilisations, ancient technologies to modern genetics, earth sciences to underwater archaeology, mythology to linguistics." The web page about Rose says he was the Presenter in a National Geographic Channel program in 2012 called "Diving into Noah’s Flood". It also says he was Presenter in two "Smithsonian Channel / BBC 2" programs in 2014, one called "Bible Hunters: the Search for Bible Truth" and the other called "Bible Hunters: the Search for Lost Gospels". The web page about Rose also says "Ancient Mysteries: Eden Revealed (Contributor) Smithsonian / UK Channel 5".

  • Simon
    WT has been stepping back from the 7000 year "creative day" doctrine for many years but bible chronology stubbornly remains out on an ever more dodgy limb.

    Good point - the WTS are young-earth creationists wether they like it or not. And the longer they keep at it the more whacky and evidence-denier they will appear.

    The only way they can get away from it is to claim the OT is just a story, and not real. But then it's the foundation for more belief built on top and the whole, already laughable, story and belief system comes crashing down.

    At some point you can reduce the entire thing to "we just like getting to dress up in suits once in a while, having a sing, and go knocking on doors".

  • TonusOH
    The only way they can get away from it is to claim the OT is just a story, and not real.

    I wonder if the GB ever discuss that. They've gone with the "Biblical literalist" label for so long, that it would be a huge risk. But it would also open up an almost endless number of new interpretations that could allow them to reshape the organization from the bottom up, as long as they did it slowly and carefully enough.

    Why, by 2040 or so, they might even vouch for evolution!

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