Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman 103 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    intentionally mislead the reader to erroneously conclude God and Christ are the same.

    I was referring to concluding that Jesus is Michael. Who else has the power and authority to evict Satan? The scriptures clearly distinguish between God and Jesus there is not mistake about it. God is God although Jesus may be given power of attorney to act as God’s proxy also such as Moses in roles. God has no role except that he can become whatever he likes if you consider that role playing.

    Michael, one of the foremost princes,

    You can read that the way you do but in harmony with all the other scriptures, the verse is not implying that there are many archangels. It is only another example of poetic language humbly describing Michael’s role in comparison to other angels not belittling them. Any angel can act as a prince for a particular purpose let’s say in some role on earth compared. to humans. Such angel can be considered a prince. Another way of looking at it is that Michael like other high ranking angels is a prince (but as God’s only begotten he is archangel.) But WT has made it clear that the belief that Jesus is Michael is a conclusion and not directly stated in God’s word. But. there is no other conclusion because Michael defeats and evicts Satan and only Jesus can do that.


  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I apologize for some remarks I made in two of my recent posts

    I don’t take offense. Enjoy your sincere expressions.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, in answer to your question of 'Why don't you ... try to mount a defense of the WT's definition of Man & Death?" I say the following. I don't have much interest in specifically defending the WT's ideas, per se, though I do defend some ideas which the WT also has. Furthermore, the WT says Man and Woman were created by Jehovah God about 6,000 years ago using a non-evolutionary process, with God breathing into Adam to make him a living soul. I totally disagree with that teaching of WT and thus I will not defend that WT teaching.

    But. regarding the defense of the Atheistic ideas pertaining to the definition of Human and Death, months ago I did that by making a post which directed people to atheistic naturalism books and human evolution books for people to read. Those books make a very strong case of such. I see no point in me writing a long online post to defend such when those books already give an excellent defense. Furthermore, I am writing an atheistic book which makes arguments for naturalism and evolution and I want what I say on the subject to be copyright protected, thus I am confining most of what I say about it to within my book.

    Here are some excellent books which discuss those subjects. The first one especially mentions subjects pertaining to naturalism, including of the human mind, in detail. People with sincere interest in learning the arguments and evidence in support of such to see if the ideas are true can take the initiative to read those books.

    - Sense and Goodness Without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism, by Richard Carrier [I read much of that book.

    - Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity (Revised & Expanded), by John W. Loftus [I own that book and have read most of it.]

    - Christianity in the Light of Science: Critically Examining the World's Largest Religion, Edited by John W. Loftus [It includes a section pertaining to the concept of the existence of the soul.]

    - God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist, by Victor J. Stenger [One of the topics it discusses if God has endowed humans with immaterial souls. I own that book and have read most of it.]

    - The New Atheism: Taking a Stand for Science and Reason, by Victor J. Stenger [I own that book and have read much of it. See https://web.archive.org/web/20140812062341/http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/NewAth.html# . It says in part the following. "In The New Atheism, I review and expand upon the principles of New Atheism and answer many of its critics. I show how naturalism, the view that everything is matter and nothing more, is sufficient to explain everything we observe in the universe from the most distant galaxies to the inner workings of the brain that result in the phenomenon of mind. Nowhere is it necessary to introduce God or the supernatural to understand the world. I dispute the claim that science has nothing to say about God and argue that absence of evidence is evidence of absence when evidence should be there and is not.]

    - God and the Folly of Faith: The Incompatibility of Science and Religion, by Victor J. Stenger [I own that book and have read much of it. An online description of it says in part the following. "The author goes on to detail how religion and science are fundamentally incompatible in several areas: the origin of the universe and its physical parameters, the origin of complexity, holism versus reductionism, the nature of mind and consciousness, and the source of morality."]

    Regarding definitions of Human in terms of anatomy and how humans came into existence, there are many biology college textbooks (including ones which explain and prove human evolution) and anatomy books and physical anthropology (with content about human evolution) books on those subjects.

    Sea Breeze, I reject the claim that naturalism (such as scientific naturalism and philosophical naturalism) is a "religion that requires immense faith in order to ignore substantial circumstantial evidence surrounding the Resurrection of Christ, Near Death Experiences, and Terminal Lucidity cases." At least one of books by Lotus and at least one of the books by Stenger provide evidence and reasoning disproving the claim that naturalism "requires immense faith in order to ignore substantial circumstantial evidence surrounding the Resurrection of Christ" and "Near Death Experiences", though I am not sure if they specifically address the topic of "Terminal Lucidity cases". I also reject the idea that philosophical materialism that which you called "naturalistic materialism" are religions.
  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Fisherman, I am glad that my comments did not offend you. I think might have offended some one of more person, by possibly too strongly wording the comment of "It is getting very tiresome for me to argue an use reason with apologists of supernaturalism and Christian fundamentalism on the subjects of supernaturalism and theology." If that is the case, I apologize for that. Like my statement of "The idea of an inner supernatural spirit is ... repugnant to me, might have been too strongly stated and thus possibly offensive to one or more persons. If that is the case, I apologize for that.

    Sea Breeze and others, what disturbs me about the hypothetical idea of an inner supernatural spirit (at least if conscious) in humans that have mortal bodies, is that the such a spirit has the potential of becoming disembodied upon the death the physical fleshly body (which I think would be an unpleasant experience) and possibly ending up in hell with eternal conscious torment. There is also the hypothetical possibility that if disembodied spirits exist, whether of the human dead or of some other kind, they might do tremendous evils to other spirits and to living humans. The apostle Paul in one of his letters said he doesn't want the experience of being a naked (disembodied) spirit but wants to a be resurrected as a spirit which is clothed with a spiritual body in heaven. He said that sense fleshly physical bodies exist then spiritual bodies also exist. The following shows how the concept of a disembodied spirit can be frightening to some people.

    Luke 24:36-38 said that some disciples of Jesus were afraid that they saw a spirit (apparently, or most likely, in the sense of a disembodied spirit) and some Bibles use the word "apparition" (namely a disembodied spirit) in verse 37, when Jesus himself suddenly stood in their midst. Verses 39-41 then say that Jesus convinced them he was not a spirit (probably meaning a disembodied spirit) for he said that he has flesh and bones and that spirits don't have such. But note that despite seeing and hearing such verse 41 says the disciples were still unbelieving. Verses 41-43 say that Jesus thus ate some broiled fish before their eyes to solve that problem.

    Sea Breeze and others, in my prior post where I listed atheistic books which addressed a question by Sea Breeze about Man and Death, which addressed a claim regarding the Resurrection of Christ, I should have also listed a book by Richard Carrier called Not the Impossible Faith: Why Christianity Didn’t Need a Miracle to Succeed. That is because one section (or chapter) of the book is specifically called "Was Resurrection Deemed Impossible?" Regarding that see https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-improbable-resurrection/ and https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-improbable/ . See also an article by him at https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-resurrection-lecture/ . See also https://infidels.org/kiosk/book/not-the-impossible-faith-why-christianity-didnt-need-a-miracle-to-succeed/.

  • truthlover123
    truthlover123

    The son was a god, the word was a god, he takes instructions from the father- there are at least 8 verses indicating he is sitting at God's right hand - He is the mighty god the father is the almighty god.. Michael is ONE of the archangels along with Gabriel. Michael was the Prince over Israel.

    There is no way Jesus and Michael are the same.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    Some existed in spirit bodies in the first earth age. We are now brought into this second earth age through birth (water) in a body of flesh. As believers we are messengers and can be called angels because our spiritual body will pass into eternity and the third earth age. Acts 12:15 portrays the belief that Peter had passed on and so speaking to him would have been sorcery and an abomination. (Deut. 18:10-12)

    love michelle ❤️

    https://youtu.be/rpUOXYOqwb4

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze I hope that especially you read this post, since in it I acknowledge that I have now adopted some of the views you stressed to me in this topic thread.

    Today, with the aid a KJV concordance, I have looked up some verses in which the word "spirit" is used in the KJV Bible in regards to what is in humans. While in some of those verses the word "spirit" can be thought of as having the modern meaning of merely mind, emotion, intellect, or life energy, without any supernatural nature definitely being intended, in other cases it does seem to definitely also mean something supernatural. It is thus looking that Sea Breeze is right in saying that in the Bible the words translated as "spirit", when used in regards to 'something' inside humans, has the meaning of something which is supernatural and thus immortal, and it also has conscious attributes.

    However, in regards to the Hebrew word translated as "soul" it is unclear (to me at least) if the meaning is that of something supernatural. In most instances the word "soul" in the OT does not convey anything supernatural to me. Genesis chapter one (such as worded in the NWT at least) says that certain nonhuman animals were created as souls, not that souls were imparted into them. Likewise as worded in the KJV (RV, ARV, ASV, and 1984 NWT), Adam upon God breathing into him became "a living soul", instead of having a soul put into him. However, since the Hebrew word translated as "breath", is also translated as "wind" and as "spirit", that verse about God breathing into Adam could also be saying that God put spirit (not a spirit being) into Adam. Similarly, in the NT in one verse Jesus is said to breathe holy spirit into his disciples.

    In the NT the meaning of the word "soul" in most instances is clearly used in the sense of person (or human life), but there are a few instances in the NT which seem to possibly contradict that meaning. But maybe in those few instances it is referring to future prospects of the soul being granted eternal life or being denying such eternal life. If the latter is case then it would agree with the WT's teaching in regards to those verses.

    But in the NT some verses seem to be saying that the human "soul" is supernatural and immortal. An example of that is in Revelation about holy ones who were executed by 'the beast', but it should be remembered that the first paragraph of Revelation says that Revelation is presented in signs (and hence symbolically), thus the conscious dead holy souls described as under the altar might not be meant to be interpreted literally.

    Perhaps in some instances the Greek word translated as soul in a few NT verses (where on the surface a supernaturally meaning seems to be indicated) actually has the meaning of spirit instead of the Hebrew meaning of soul. In other cases, the vast majority of cases, in the NT the Greek word translated as soul seems to have the Hebrew meaning of a mortal soul which is the entire human (or nonhuman animal), which God in future might give eternal life, as well as cases in which claim God in the future (speaking from the point of view of the future as if it already happened) has made some human souls eternal.

    Considering the above, it seems to me that regarding the Hebrew and Greek words which are translated as "soul" in English translations of the Bible, the WT's definition of the biblical "soul" is the actual meaning which the Bible teaches - except perhaps in regards to a few NT verses. However, it also seems that the WT's definition of the Bible's meaning of the the biblical "spirit" of humans is incorrect (at least partially incorrect).
  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    A moment ago the following occurred to me. I consider it an insight and 'inspiration' in a naturalistic sense, but do some of you readers consider it inspiration in a supernatural sense from God the Father and/or from Jesus Christ the Son of God? Do some of you think such even though I am now an atheistic naturalist, though I seriously and sincerely partook of the memorial emblems for two years privately in my home?

    Since Revelation says it is presented in signs (and thus presents matters symbolically) perhaps when it mentions Michael the Archangel it is neither saying that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel nor speaking literally of Michael the Archangel. Perhaps instead its mention of Michael the Archangel (like it mention of the lamb who/which was slaughtered) is a symbolic reference to Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus Christ (if he existed) was not a literally a slaughtered lamb, perhaps according to Revelation he was not literally Michael the Archangel but rather is symbolically represented in Revelation as Michael the Archangel. In contrast to that, perhaps in other books of the Bible where Michael the Archangel is mentioned, the meaning is literally of Michael the Archangel.

    If the above is the case, then the biblical references to Michael the Archangel are reconciled with each other, and the confusion of whether or not Jesus is Michael is also cleared away! I think that number of cases I understand the Bible better than the writers of the WT (including the governing body of the JW religion). What do you readers think about that?

    Sea Breeze, Vanderhaven7, and Fisherman what do you think of the above?

    Furthermore, since I spent so much time studying the Bible and theology should I obtain an online "diploma mill" degree in theology, as well as an online "diploma mill" degree as a minister of atheism (and/or of humanism), and write a biblical theology book which besides saying what I think the Bible teaches on certain subjects, also presents an atheistic point of view of the Bible? Do you think I am scholarly enough to write well such a book and make a significant amount of money from such?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I might have been incorrect in thinking that the mention of the word "signs" in Revelation 1:1 (such as in the 1984 NWT) means that Revelation is presented in symbols. The idea that the word "signs" in Revelation 1:1 means symbols is a meaning which the WT taught and which I thus thought was correct, but the KJV, RV, ARV, and ASV say "signified" instead of "signs" (or "presented [it] in signs"), and some other Bibles say "made it known" instead of "signs". Furthermore, the word "signs" as used in the Bible sometimes means something literal, such as claims of literal miracles having been performed by Jesus as indication that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God the Father, and was sent and empowered by God the Father. However, it is obvious to me that most of Revelation is presented symbolically (or at least figuratively) instead of literally.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    On second thought I think it is best that I do not obtain an online "diploma mill" degree in theology and that I do not obtain an online "diploma mill" degree as a minister of atheism (and/or of humanism). Furthermore, I think it is best that I do not write a biblical theology book. Writing an atheistic book which in large part criticizes the Bible is enough in regards to writing a book which comments on the Bible.

    I am disappointed that so much of what I was taught by the WT Society of Bible doctrines is incorrect.

    In contrast to what I wrote earlier in this topic thread, perhaps the passage about Michael the Archangel in the book of Revelation is from a Jewish non-Christian text. Some scholars say that Revelation started out as a Jewish non-Christian apocalyptic book, but that Christian portions were later added to the book making it what is today. Perhaps the book of Revelation shouldn't be considered part of the Christian NT canon.

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