Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman, you have been indoctrinated

    logical fallacy irrelevant. WT commentary stands.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Hand waving wont work here Fisherman. You are not at the Kingdom Hall. Provide scriptures supporting your position on death please.

  • punkofnice

    Y'see, this is what makes me think the Bible is not all it's cracked up to be.

    All this to-ing and fro-ing about who is correct and who isn't.

    Shouldn't a book from the 'Divine' be stating things in an obvious way?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, I have thought of a number of those verses you mentioned regarding people having a spirit within them. Yes when I think of them (both when I was a believing JW and after I became a naturalist) they always perplex me when I try to reconcile what they say from the WT point of view. Furthermore, from the atheistic naturalist point of view which I now embrace they are nonsense and superstition and foolishness to me. In regard to the latter I agree with part of 1 Corinthians 2:14. In a number of places Paul says some of his ideas are foolishness to some people and I agree with that for a number of his ideas are foolishness to me.

    Your drawing my attention to verses about an inner supernatural spirit within humans does not make me want to to believe in those ideas. Instead to the extent it convinces me that the Bible teaches such others with the meaning you say they have, to that extent it reinforces my idea that vast majority of the Bible is falsehood. There is no way a person can prove that the Bible is right in saying a supernatural kind of spirit is inside people. As a result, the biblical teaching of such is superstition.

    The idea of an inner supernatural spirit is nonsense to me and repugnant to me. Likewise of idea of inviting the Christ or God the Father to indwell in me is also repugnant to me (including when I was an independent Christian), because to me such is a teaching of a form of spirit possession. I hate the idea of any spirit being getting inside me and controlling me, whether it be an evil spirit (such as the devil or a demon or a ghost of a dead human) or a good spirit (such as Christ or God the Father).

    In regards to these concepts and some other spiritual concepts I have never been spiritually inclined and never spiritually minded. Since early childhood I have been naturally inclined to naturalism and to science. I was born with no belief in a god (even in God) and with no belief in spirits and I wish I had never been taught to believe in those concepts. To me it is utter insanity that most of humankind worldwide believes in the supernatural, including spirits. To me, to a certain degree, the concept of living among people who believe in spirits is like being a sane person locked in an insane asylum full of insane people! To me the belief of spirits is appalling. That is part of reason I reason to Christians, with me having the hope of persuading some of them to become atheistic naturalists. I have left the JW religion and Christianity and Christian congregational worship attendance because I am not of the same sort as those who are Christians (no matter what version of Christianity they believe in). - 1 John 2:19

    So-called infidelity to Christian beliefs (being unfaithful to Christian doctrines; abandoning belief in Christian doctrines) is what appeals to me, such as the agnostic writings of Robert Ingersoll. I purchased a book, edited by a hardcore promoter of atheism, of many of the agnostic writings of Robert Ingersoll. It is a great book.

    The main reason why I still keep many English translations of the Bible is so that I can use them to try to correct the thinking of supernatually minded Christians, so that hopefully they will become atheists.

    Update: Sea Breeze, in regarding your posts about the humans having a spirit within them, I am starting to believe you are correct in saying that the Bible teaches such and that the WT in saying the Bible does not teach such. But as a result that makes the Bible seem more full of false teachings.

    The concept of humans consisting of body, eternal soul, and eternal spirit which you say the OT teaches seems to me to be the essentially the same as the ideas held by the ancient Egyptians, ancient Sumerians, ancient Babylonians, and ancient Assyrians, as well as that many other ancient peoples. That concept of those ancient peoples (since the time I learned they believed in such) and in an afterlife in Sheol has been nonsense to me since the times I learned they had that concept.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction: In the post which said "Christian apologists seem to think that all Christians who become atheists quickly became Christians, but they are wrong" I meant to say "Christian apologists seem to think that all Christians who become atheists quickly became atheists, but they are wrong."

    By the way folks, my two prior posts were submitted more than 24 hours ago, but for some reason unknown to me they didn't post till more than 12 hours later. That sort of thing has happened before.

  • Fisherman

    Hand waving wont work here Fisherman

    Another fallacy.

    Death is the opposite of life. That is why a resurrection is needed such as in Lazarus and others.

    The difference with Jesus is that he is the first human to be resurrected to a Spirit creature to go to heavenly life.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction: in my post where I said "... that the WT in saying ..." I meant to say "... that the WT is wrong in saying ...".

    Further information: Sea Breeze, when I wrote of discovering that the Bible has numerous contradictions which contributed to me disbelieving in the Bible as being inspired of God, I wasn't thinking of what the Bible says about the human soul and human spirit. Back then I was perplexed by some of the what the Bible says about the soul and spirit, but I hadn't used that as evidence of the Bible being contradictory. Likewise I hadn't used statements in the Bible regarding whether Jesus is God or not as evidence of contradictions in the Bible that call into question of whether the Bible is God's word or not. Instead when I think of contradictions in the Bible which indicate it is not inspired of God I am thinking of other matters.

  • LV101

    Sea B - very interesting and appreciate. A lot for my brain to take in not having read anything biblical in decades (running from the JWs) other than a few one liners here from you, Vanden, Slimboyfat (i think but I'm not on here much w/all the covid alternative news). I can imagine how exhausting these posts are for Fisherman/Disillusioned/yourself. Attended funeral couple wks ago and heard statement or 2 re/the deceased's state - quite different from WT.

    Attended way too many funerals lately - 😥.

    Disillusioned - I've heard church-goers (Methodists) say the Bible is contradictory after one of their speed-course studies. Not comforting to hear yet hounded regularly to attend church's special events = anything crazy to get people there - one of our family member's Grandmother/oh my. Nice church.

  • Earnest

    Earnest : They both share similar roles so it may be inferred [that Jesus and Michael are the same] but it is not explicit, and so I don't consider the viewpoint conclusive.

    Fisherman : Although I agree, Are the scriptures intentionally misleading the reader to conclude erroneously?

    No, I don't think so. There are many roles which both God and Christ have, but that does not mean the scriptures intentionally mislead the reader to erroneously conclude God and Christ are the same. What I am saying, as far as JWs are concerned, is that I don't think that identifying Jesus as Michael should be a core doctrine. It is not explicit.

    Further, in my own mind I find it difficult to reconcile Daniel 10:13 with there only being one archangel. It says "... then Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me ..." If there are other "foremost princes" then I wonder whether Michael's position is as unique as that of Jesus. I have no doubt that for some this can be reconciled but it gives me pause for thought not to be too dogmatic on the subject.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze and others, I apologize for some remarks I made in two of my recent posts. I was in a very irritated/angry mood at the time, but I shouldn't have said some of what I said. I plan to make a more detailed apology later (and state some updated views I have regarding the concept of the soul and spirit) after I get off work today.

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