I remember spirited discussions right here on this site about the 90's era FBI and more specifically, the heavy handedness of the Clinton administration.
Waco Mini-Series on Netflix. Powerful and Scary.
by Simon 33 Replies latest social current
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1234
What not trust our governmental agencies! This speech is shocking who can hear it.
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frozen2018
When the Waco tragedy occurred I was working in a remote, completely off the grid area of the planet. My co-workers and I had no real information as to what was happening in the States. We had snippets of news that made no sense. I got back to civilization a couple months after the fire. I remember watching videos of what looked like heavily armed soldiers, the tanks attacking the building, the fire starting, and the final inferno. I wondered what could possibly justify this reaction from my government and what the hell happened to my country. It was surreal.
I too watched the Waco series and thought it was quite good. Another good title is "Waco: Rules of Engagement" a 2 hour documentary that was nominated for an Academy Award. Too me, this is one of saddest and infuriating documentaries I have ever watched. The sickest part is watching the Senate hearings looking into the matter and how the government spun and spun and spun itself to absolve the government of any guilt. I rewatched part of the movie today. It's striking how many politicians who were part of the Waco hearings are still in Washington which by itself is a sad comment on the US government. Don't these a-holes ever go away?
Here's the link if you're interested:
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Finkelstein
It was shame that those innocent woman children were killed in that event but the good thing about this tragedy was David Koresh was killed , he proclaimed that he was chosen by god and therefore had god's holy spirit running through him, (how many times do you hear that ?) so he self empowered himself and took psychological and behavioral control over his followers, which inevitability led to their deaths.
The other good thing is the ATF and FBI after this event have changed their procedures and protocols in occurring situations like this.
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mikronboy
Can't source this on Netflix UK at present.
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Simon
Is this the series that had Michael Shannon as the FBI negotiator?
Yes, that's the one.
It was shame that those innocent woman children were killed in that event but the good thing about this tragedy was David Koresh was killed , he proclaimed that he was chosen by god and therefore had god's holy spirit running through him
I don't think you can add any "but the good thing ..." to the first part of the sentence. Unless he was butchering women and children then it couldn't be justified or used to balance the deaths out.
Can't source this on Netflix UK at present.
The one thing I hate about Netflix is how everything is regionalized. That and the auto-play of previews. Ok, the two things I hate about Netflix are ...
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Finkelstein
I don't think you can add any "but the good thing ..." to the first part of the sentence. Unless he was butchering women and children
Reports came out by past Davidian members that he was having sex to whom ever he wanted including, children, teenagers and married woman in the cult.
This guy was a uncontrolled creep, the investigative assumption to why he didn't want to give himself up and the group to the authorities is because he knew he would be found out to his deplorable actions that he had been doing.
B. Evidence of Historical Child Sexual and Physical Abuse[edit]
1. Sexual Abuse[edit]
Rumors about Koresh's sexual practices with girls persisted for years prior to the ATF raid. Former compound members told stories about Koresh's alleged practice of having sex with girls as young as twelve. Evidence suggested that Koresh had "wives" who were in their mid-teens, that Koresh told detailed and inappropriate sexual stories in front of the children during his Bible study sessions, and that Koresh taught the young girls that it was a privilege for them to become old enough (i.e., reach puberty) to have sex with him. One former compound member described how Koresh would invent theological justifications for his sexual desires, whether they involved having sex with young girls or with other men's adult wives.
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cyberjesus
ATF only had jurisdiction for Firearm violations... and there were none. ATF could have arrested DK any day... they didn't. DK invited the ATF to go inside his house and check for themselves.. they refused.
The members that stayed were true believers but they were also free to go. They stayed inside defending their property and their freedom.
It was mass murder of American citizens in their own land and by their own government agencies.
But we were told a different story. They lied to us about the situation.
This misuse of power hasn't decreased. on the contrary. People are being treated more and more like subjects and slaves. Just look at the majority of traffic stops... Armed men start giving orders to free men and use violence if they people don't follow their instructions.
Exactly where is the land of the free when you need permission to act?
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Finkelstein
Here is some background information to how this cult got started and its not so usual doctrines which could be said to have unified the following/cult.......
Early history[edit]
In 1929, Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant and a Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath School teacher in a local church in Southern California, claimed that he had a new message for the entire church. He presented his views in a book, The Shepherd's Rod: The 144,000—A Call for Reformation.[3] The Adventist leadership rejected Houteff's views as contrary to the Adventists' basic teachings and local church congregations disfellowshipped Houteff and his followers.
In 1934, Houteff established his headquarters to the west of Waco, Texas and his group became known as The Davidians.[4] In 1942, he renamed the group the General Association of Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, 'Davidian' indicating the belief in the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel. Following Houteff's death in 1955, the segment of the group loyal to Houteff continued as the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, led by his wife Florence. Convinced of an imminent apocalypse, in a time frame announced by Florence Houteff which was not found in the original writings of her husband Victor, Florence and her council gathered hundreds of faithful followers together at their Mount Carmel Center near Waco in 1959 for the fulfillment of Ezekiel 9.[5]
The anticipated events did not occur, and following this disappointment, Benjamin Roden formed another group called the Branch Davidians and succeeded in taking control of Mount Carmel. This name is an allusion to the anointed 'Branch' (mentioned in Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).[6][7] When Benjamin Roden died in 1978, he was succeeded by his wife Lois Roden. Members of the Branch Davidians were torn between allegiance to Ben's wife, Lois Roden, and his son, George. After Lois Roden died, George Roden assumed the right to the Presidency. But less than a year later, Vernon Howell rose to power and became the leader over those in the group who sympathized with him.
Rise of David Koresh[edit]
Vernon Howell's arrival on the Waco compound in 1981 was well received by nearly everyone at the Davidian commune. Howell had an affair with the then-prophet of the Branch Davidians, Lois Roden, while he was in his late 20s and she was in her late 60s. Howell wanted a child with her, who, according to his understanding, would be the Chosen One. When she died, her son George Roden inherited the positions of prophet and leader of the commune. However, George Roden and Howell began to clash.[8] Howell soon enjoyed the loyalty of the majority of the Branch Davidian community.[9]
David Koresh in a 1987 mug shotAs an attempt to regain support, George Roden challenged Howell to raise the dead, going so far as to exhume a corpse in order to demonstrate his spiritual supremacy. This illegal act gave Howell an opportunity to attempt to file charges against Roden, but he was told he needed evidence. This led to the raid on November 3, 1987, of the Mount Carmel Center by Howell and 7 of his followers equipped with five .223 caliber semiautomatic rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. Their objective seemed to be to retake the land that Howell had left three years earlier. Although they claimed to have been trying to obtain evidence of Roden's illegal activity, they did not take a camera.[10]
The trial ended with the jury finding the followers of Howell not guilty, but the jury members were unable to agree on a verdict for Howell. After his followers were found not guilty, Howell invited the prosecutors to Mount Carmel for ice cream.[11]
It is claimed that Howell was never authorized to name his breakaway sect the "Branch Davidians",[12] and the church which bears that name continues to represent the members of the Branch church who did not follow him.
As a spiritual leader[edit]
Howell, who acquired the position of spiritual leader from Roden, asserted it by changing his name to David Koresh, suggesting that he had ties to the biblical King David and Cyrus the Great (Koresh is the Hebrew version of the name Cyrus). He wanted to create a new lineage of world leaders.[5] This practice later served as the basis for allegations that Koresh was committing child abuse, which contributed to the siege by the ATF.[13]
Interpreting Revelation 5:2, Koresh identified himself with the Lamb mentioned therein.[14][15] This is traditionally believed to symbolize Jesus Christ, however, Koresh suggested that the Lamb would come before Jesus and pave the way for his Second Coming.[16][5]
By the time of the 1993 Waco siege, Koresh had encouraged his followers to think of themselves as "students of the Seven Seals," rather than as "Branch Davidians." During the standoff, one of his followers publicly announced that he wanted them to thereafter be identified by the name "Koreshians".[17]
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Simon
Their beliefs are no crazier than any other religion such as Catholicism, you're just familiar with one and dulled to how ridiculous it all is.
They are effectively similar to the WTS, an offshoot of 7th day adventism that didn't grow as much as other groups did.
Nothing justified an armed assault on a compound with women and children inside and no precautions or emergency services on standby.
They (the ATF / FBI) clearly didn't give a shit about anyone's wellbeing.
