by pseudoxristos 40 Replies latest jw friends
The Wahhabists of present day Saudi Arabia were, more or less, still stuck in the 14th century when Royal Dutch Shell, and others discovered oil in the regiion during the 1920s-30s. Hence, they have had LESS than a century to go from 14th century Wahabbist Islam to the modern world. - Sugar Shane
I am at a loss to follow your logic.
I am at a loss to follow your logic - yes it is difficult to follow.
He seems to be saying it's the West's fault for trying to rush Saudi into the 21st century ... just leave them to oppress women and gays and kill atheists for another 5 or 6 centuries, then we'll see where they're at.
@ Love Uni:
The point I was trying to make was the exact opposite. Simply, that while taking advantage of their cheap oil, we’ve IGNORED those very things you just listed: oppression of gays, women & non-Saudi guest workers. If you read my previous post, you’ll see that I mentioned the fact that we did not “hold their feet to the fire” on those various issues throughout the 20th century. It’s not OUR FAULT that they were stuck in 14th century Wahabbism when we found oil there in 20th century, and it’s not nessecarily our fault that they are still, culturally, in the 14th century. However, after the big American oil bust of the late 1970s, I personally think that we should have dealt more responsibly with the Saudi royalty, by demanding that in return for our oil dollars, they must reform their country, and allow their people greater freedom. We made such demands of the Soviets (“tear down this wall”), and we sure as hell should’ve done the same, especially considering that MOST of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi. In short, if we REALLY want to stop the spread of radical Islam, then we either tell them to get their shit together, or we’ll drill our own (they can fuk’n DRINK it, for all I care). We WERE drilling our own, until the Saudis lowered the price of oil. They wanted to hurt the Russian oil economy, which they did...but in the process it got us ‘re-addicted’ to their cheap oil.
Here are some good reads on the subject of Saudi’s medieval system & how it contrasts with the techicsl modernization they’ve enjoyed through dealings eith western powers, if you are interested:
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/saudi-arabia-new-leader-same-medieval-state
https://www.quora.com/How-was-life-in-Saudi-Arabia-before-oil-was-found
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/posteverything/wp/2017/09/28/yes-letting-women-in-saudi-arabia-drive-is-a-baby-step-but-we-shouldnt-laugh-at-it/
I meant to post this as well. A potential silver lining, and in my opinion, the main reason we are seeing the reforms (however small) that ARE actually taking place in Saudi. It’s not because they are following strong US leadership (that ended with Reagan, I’m afraid). Rather, it’s because they’re going broke & actually have NO CHOICE in the matter. Ha!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/11/saudi-arabia-may-go-broke-before-the-us-oil-industry-buckles
Also, this book:
emoirs of a Saudi Pilot: In the Beautiful State of Alabama (Usa) By Al Hassan Ali Al Neami
. I actually met the man while in Riyadh. Pretty cool guy. Like a lot of Saudis who have ventured out of country, he knew what a backwards system his country had. But, he has to go through the motions...mandatory prayer 5 times a day, or ELSE get arrested by the Muttawa (religious police). I honestly think that roughly HALF, if not more of the Saudi populace are what you former JWs would call “PIMO.”
Hey Freemind, are/were you in the 24th IR?
Negative on that, did not serve
Question: Why would the Romans torture & kill 10's if not 100's of thousands of people who chose to belong to an ideology that they themselves "engineered"?
*sigh*
ok... you are talking about what I would essentially consider a myth.
Just like most all of the "Jesus" story and everything associated with it, it was written later on to give substance to "fake news".
For instance, Tacitus a Roman Historian who wrote about the persecutions of the early “Christians”...these writings supporting the persecution were mysteriously found in the 15th century in the forests of Germany, following a reward offered by Leo X for old writings, and following a history of forgeries in Catholicism.
There are actually a lot of other references we could talk about for days on here to the myth of Christian persecution as you describe it. You are also assuming early Christian cults pre-Constantine are what we consider "Christian" today, what a very JW thing to think lol.
Whatever Christians were before Constantine, there was likely no great state-sponsored persecution as you claim, and the form that Christianity took post-Constantine (today as we know it), was an exercise in propaganda for political reasons.
can you imagine, someone lying for political reasons and making up stories???
Ah, the inevitable plucking of examples from 400 years ago "what about when they conquered America and killed the Aztecs?!?" See, Christians are exactly the same as ISIS.
Maybe ... 400 years ago. Also, I think people have far too many romanticized views of these native cultures - they used to do human sacrifice for god sake, their society was the shithole of it's day and met a better and stronger one. I think the world is better off for the one that won than if things had gone the other way round.
But let's say, your boss introduces you to a new business partner from Senegal. Are you going to tell him he comes from a shithole country? NO? why not? you know why not....because you recognize some truths are better left unsaid sometimes.
That is not the context at all. If he was saying it on a trip to one of those countries maybe, but he wasn't. Wasn't this a private discussion that was leaked? Maybe some things SHOULD be said. Trump seems to be saying a lot of things that were off the table for Obama (although he seemed happy to say other incendiary things) but Trumps comments are actually having some positive effects in the world.
I know that sticks in the throat of some to admit that Trump can actually do positive things but so far he is killing it in a way that Obama never came close.
I know that sticks in the throat of some to admit that Trump can actually do positive things but so far he is killing it in a way that Obama never came close.
Bottom line Trump is a fighter, not a politician, and the fact that he can be offensive is the worst sin imaginable now in this era of "speech is violence". In the now internet famous exchange between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman, he finally said what so many of us think,
“In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive,”
This new culture we have of speech is violence, victimhood is everywhere, equity of outcome is paramount, and identity politics is going to put us on the fast track to a dystopian shitshow that has been laid out time and again in literature and history as a massive failure.
