The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    DJW,

    How many beneficial mutations do you suppose it would take to get from Little Foot or Lucy to Homo Sapien in the proposed ~ 3 Million years?

    100 Thousand? 100 Million? (and we will just ignore all the interdependent mutations necessary for the sake of argument)

    In the video I posted above, Dr. Sanford stated in his lecture at the prestigious Natl. Institutes of Health conference that a short 8 letter genetic word would take 18 billion years for it to become homogeneous to a genetic population of only 10,000. (around 21:15).... Far longer than the universe has supposedly existed.

    He stated that his research has been reviewed by thousands of colleagues, and that his science is rock solid and unrefuted.

    What is your response to this science?

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000
    In the video I posted above, Dr. Sanford stated in his lecture at the prestigious Natl.

    Right. I can also produce someone who has a PHD that thinks sticking needles in your skin will cure cancer.

    This hoaxster Sanford is a fraud. His book Genetic Entropy has been debunked point by point. You see this is the problem with people that come to this forum debating evolution with people that have marginal knowledge about it.

    Why not go debate the entire scientific community on this subject instead of coming here? Surely the chance of getting a Nobel should be enough incentive.

    Still wasting time in 2021 trying to discredit something that scores of scientists building upon the work done by previous generations have confirmed beyond any shadow of a doubt. How silly.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Thanks redvip2000. Based upon your information I did some checking and I found the web page of http://blog.rongarret.info/2020/05/a-review-of-john-sanfords-genetic.html and the one at https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/gen_entropy/ . It is worth reading.

    I would like know though where I can see Sanford's book debated point by point on numerous points, rather than just for the points mentioned in the articles which which the above links to them. redvip2000 what source do you have for that?

    It is disappointing that in the USA so many adult humans still are convinced of non-evolutionary creationism (primarily young Earth creationism). A huge part of that is due to the influence of superstitions heavily taught by some religions (such as fundamentalist Christianity). The USA is advanced in many ways, but when it comes to the considerable percentage of the USA adult human population which reject macroevolution, the USA is sadly very backward. Outdated religious teachings have too strong of a hold on much of the human population of the USA.

    Regarding polling numbers on this topic, what https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-many-creationists-are-there-in-america/ says is interesting. One of the things it points out is the effect of the wording of questions upon the polling results. It indicates that a higher percentage of the population consider evolution to true, than what most polls about the topic reveal. It is that is true, then that is encouraging to me regarding the percentage of the population which considers evolution a fact.

    The blog article says the following.

    "These findings are in keeping with arguments by sociologists of religion that highly religious Americans may feel conflicted about saying humans have evolved, unless they are able to clarify that they also believe God had a hand in the development of life. Indeed, the subset of people who respond differently to the two survey approaches consists mainly of those who believe that God or a higher power played a role in human evolution. For example, nearly all white evangelical Protestants who say humans have evolved—whether in a branched-choice or single-question format—also say God had a role in human evolution.

    ...

    Considered together, the experiments illustrate the importance of testing multiple ways of asking about evolution. For some people, views about the origins and development of human life are bound up with deeply held religious beliefs. Pew Research Center’s goal in designing questions on this topic is to allow respondents to share their thoughts about both the scientific theory of evolution and whether God played a role in the creation and development of life on Earth—and to do so in a way that does not force respondents to choose between science and religion. Indeed, the data show that a sizable share of Americans believe both that life on Earth has evolved over time and that God played some role in the evolutionary process."

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    An interesting question posed in this topic thread is "How many beneficial mutations do you suppose it would take to get from Little Foot or Lucy to Homo Sapien in the proposed ~ 3 Million years?" In order to accurately calculate that we would need to know what the genome was for Little Foot and for Lucy. But we don't have that information because none of their genetic code has been preserved intact in their fossils, because the fossils are far to old. But even without that information there might be a way to estimate it.

    What we do know is that the genetic code of modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos is about 96% the same with modern day Homo sapiens (previously the percentage was thought to be 98.8%; the 98.8% was calculated based only upon "single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code"). [See https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds .] Both Little Foot and Lucy are much more closely related to us (which is known based upon comparisons of their skeletal structure) than modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos. As a result the genetic code of them when they were alive must have been even more identical to ours than are the chimps and bonobos to us. [Note: When some scientists use the word chimpanzees they are including bonobos in the classification called chimpanzees, along with the common chimpanzees, thus classifying two different species as chimpanzees. The bonobo, in the past was commonly also referred to as the "pygmy chimpanzee", and today it still sometimes is. Both common chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and bonobos (Pan paniscus) are of the same taxonomic genus, namely Pan. The genus name "Pan" means "chimpanzee".]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(genus) says "The chimpanzee (P. troglodytes) who lives north of the Congo River, and the bonobo (P. paniscus) who lives south of it, were once considered to be the same species, but since 1928 they have been recognized as distinct.[6] In addition, P. troglodytes is divided into four subspecies, while P. paniscus is undivided. Based on genome sequencing, these two extant Pan species diverged around one million years ago. ... Chimpanzees and bonobos are equally humanity's closest living relatives." Sadly the article also says "Both Pan species are considered to be endangered as human activities have caused severe declines in the populations and ranges of both species."

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds says the following.

    "The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

    ...

    Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome.

    The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.

    ...

    Eichler and his colleagues found that the human and chimp sequences differ by only 1.2 percent in terms of single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code.

    But 2.7 percent of the genetic difference between humans and chimps are duplications, in which segments of genetic code are copied many times in the genome."

    Some scientists go so far as to say that humans are apes.

    The above article also says the following.

    "Humans and chimps originate from a common ancestor, and scientists believe they diverged some six million years ago.

    Given this relatively short time since the split, it's likely that a few important mutations are responsible for the differences between the two species, according to Wen-Hsiung Li, a molecular evolutionist at the University of Chicago in Illinois.

    ...

    There are several hypotheses that account for the evolution of human traits. Li believes these traits come from changes in the parts of the genome that regulate other gene activity."

    See also https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent/human-origins/understanding-our-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps and https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics .

    Regarding information of how life might have got started (abiogenesis) an excellent book on that topic (besides those listed in another post of mine in this topic thread) is Genesis: The Scientific Quest for Life's Origin, by Robert M Hazen (with a Forward by David W Deamer). See https://www.nhbs.com/genesis-the-scientific-quest-for-lifes-origin-book for a description of that book. I very much enjoyed reading that book.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Regarding the evidence for biological evolution there is a useful article by the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) at https://ncse.ngo/review-evolution-what-fossils-say-and-why-it-matters .

    At https://ncse.ngo/genesis-knows-nothing-scientific-creationism the NCSE in an online issue of their "Creation/Evolution Journal" (Issue 12) makes an argument based upon the Bible and the archaeological discoveries of ancient writings that claims young earth creationism is incompatible with the Bible's account of creation. It makes the argument that Genesis 1:1 - 2:4 was not meant to be interpreted literally. The article is very interesting and it makes me now seriously question the idea of interpreting Genesis chapter one from a literal (fundamentalist style) point of view.

    This article is by far the best presentation I have read that represents something similar to the theological liberal interpretation of theologians and biblical scholars, but in a way which also integrates a lot of scientific facts. I am surprised to learn that it is written by a science education organization - one which I highly respect. If its views are correct then I need to abandon most (maybe all) of my specific criticisms of the creation account of Genesis 1:1 - 2:4.

    https://ncse.ngo/about-issue-0 says in part the following.

    'Issue XI was devoted entirely to exposing the difficulties in creationist attempts to render scientifically plausible the story of Noah's Ark. ... But debunking the efforts of pseudoscientific biblical literalists by pitting their claims against the facts of nature is only one way to reveal the bankruptcy of their case. Another, and perhaps more basic, approach is to challenge their biblical literalism itself. Do "scientific creationists" read the Bible correctly? Is their biblical scholarship credible, or is it as outdated and superficial as their science?

    In this issue, Conrad Hyers demonstrates how the matters dealt with in Genesis have nothing to do with the current creation-evolution controversy. The great religious issue that the biblical writers sought to resolve was one of a very different sort-one that proved to be more basic to modem Western religious belief than creationists suspect.

    In future issues of Creation/Evolution, we will feature articles discussing Genesis from further angles. Although we remain a journal that focuses upon the scientific errors creationists make, it is important that we not miss the fact that they make errors in biblical scholarship as well-lest some accept the creationist claim that one must choose between evolution and the Bible.'

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    When I first learned of Australopithecus africanus I was very impressed with the shape of its cranium (at least of the skull specimen called "Mrs. Ples" and the skull specimen called "Taung Child"), since it strongly suggested to me that the species might have been a ancestor to our species.The skulls of that species looked much more human to me than those of Australopithecus afarensis.

    Years later I learned that as a result of the discovery of Australopithecus afarensis that most anthropologists came to believe that Australopithecus africanus can not be an ancestor of ours. That greatly disappointed me and made me very sad, because it took away the joy I had in believing that Australopithecus africanus was an ancestral species of me. Two of the reasons why anthropologists abandoned Australopithecus africanus as an ancestor of our species are because: (1) Australopithecus afarensis had been dated as about one million years older than Australopithecus africanus and (2) because the molar teeth of Australopithecus afarensis were of about the same size of those of our species, whereas those Australopithecus africanus were bigger than those of ours. Because of those two factors it was thought that Australopithecus africanus evolved from Australopithecus afarensis and that our species descended from Australopithecus afarensis and some descendant species of it, but not from Australopithecus africanus.

    But a very recent article (dated June 27, 2022) in a science journal states that numerous fossils of Australopithecus (including ones of Australopithecus africanus) are now re-dated as being one million years older that they previously were thought to be. The scientist who re-dated them is the same scientist who dated the fossil of Little Foot. If the new dating is correct then it means that the species Australopithecus africanus is about as old as the species Australopithecus afarensis (and older than the fossil called "Lucy") - and that Australopithecus africanus did not descend from Australopithecus afarensis (except possibly from a small early population of A. Afarensis). It also means (at least to me) that Australopithecus africanus might be an ancestral species of ours after all (and that Australopithecus afarensis might not be an ancestral species of ours). The science journal article is at https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2123516119 and is called "Cosmogenic nuclide dating of Australopithecus at Sterkfontein, South Africa".

    The science journal article says the following. "Australopithecus fossils from the richest hominin-bearing deposit (Member 4) at Sterkfontein in South Africa are considerably older than previously argued by some and are contemporary with Australopithecus afarensis in East Africa. Our dates demonstrate the limitations of the widely accepted concept that Australopithecus africanus, which is well represented at Sterkfontein, descended from A. afarensis. The contemporaneity of the two species now suggests that a more complex family tree prevailed early in the human evolutionary process."

    The science journal article has a lot of technical terminology in it, but a number of news articles describe the significance of the findings in a much easier to understand manner. One of those articles is at https://www.sciencealert.com/cradle-of-humankind-fossils-may-be-a-million-years-older-than-we-previously-thought . It says the following.

    'Multiple ancient hominin remains from caves in South Africa may be much, much older than previous estimates suggested.

    The Sterkfontein limestone cave system, not far from Johannesburg, has yielded so many ancient bones from the hominin genus Australopithecus over the last century that its location has been dubbed the Cradle of Humankind – deeply important to the study of human evolution.

    Now, new dating techniques suggest that the remains date back nearly 4 million years – making them even older than the famous Australopithecus afarensis individual Dinkinesh, nicknamed Lucy.

    ... Most of the Sterkfontein Australopithecus remains have been recovered from a cave infill called Member 4. That's exactly what it sounds like: material that filled what was previously a cavity, resulting in a sedimentary deposit; in this case, concealing but preserving ancient hominin remains. Member 4 previously yielded the famous Mrs. Ples skull, the most complete example of its kind ever discovered.

    ... the team discerned that the Australopithecus-bearing sediments all date from between 3.4 and 3.7 million years ago. That means the remains recovered from the deposit are all from around the beginning of the Australopithecus era, and not its end as previously thought.

    ... "Younger hominins, including Paranthropus and our genus Homo, appear between about 2.8 and 2 million years ago," said archaeologist Dominic Stratford of the University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa, Sterkfontein research coordinator.

    "Based on previously suggested dates, the South African Australopithecus species were too young to be their ancestors, so it has been considered more likely that Homo and Paranthropus evolved in East Africa."

    The new result, consistent with the dating of Little Foot, suggests that Homo and Paranthropusalso found in the Cradle of Humankind – emerged nearly a million years after the Member 4 individuals lived, which means the order of events, and where they occurred, can be revised.'

    For related news articles about the findings see the following.

    - https://www.newsweek.com/fossils-earliest-ancestors-million-years-older-previously-thought-scientists-1719660

    - https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/28/world/sterkfontein-cave-australopithecus-fossils-age-scn/index.html . This article says that based upon the dating from decades ago that "... researchers up until now have accepted that South African Australopiths were descended from East African species, like Lucy and other members of Australopithecus afarensis." But the article continues by saying the following. ' “What our age shows is that this cannot be true, because they are virtually the same age,” Granger said. “There must be an older common ancestor. It also gives much more time for the South African species to evolve, and reopens discussion about the role of the South African species into later hominins such as Paranthropus.” '

    - http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/sterkfontein-australopithecus-fossils-10944.html . This article says the following.

    'The team’s results show that the entire Australopithecus assemblage at Sterkfontein dates to 3.4-3.7 million years ago.

    These australopiths were thus early representatives of the genus, overlapping in age with a morphologically diverse range of mid-Pliocene hominins, including Australopithecus afarensis and Australopithecus deyiremeda at Burtele, Australopithecus bahrelgazali in Chad, Kenyanthropus platyops at Lake Turkana, and Australopithecus anamensis at Woranso-Mille.

    “The Sterkfontein hominins predate Paranthropus, Homo, and Australopithecus sediba at nearby sites in the Cradle of Humankind by over a million years,” the authors said.

    In addition to the new dates at Sterkfontein based on cosmogenic nuclides, the they made careful maps of the cave deposits and showed how animal fossils of different ages would have been mixed together during excavations in the 1930s and 1940s, leading to decades of confusion with the previous ages.

    “What I hope is that this convinces people that this dating method gives reliable results,” Dr. Granger said.

    “Using this method, we can more accurately place ancient humans and their relatives in the correct time periods, in Africa, and elsewhere across the world.” '

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I own a hardcover edition of A New Human: The Startling Discovery and Strange of the "Hobbits" of Flores, Indonesia, by Mike Morwood and Penny van OOsteree. The book is copyright 2007. The book says that Homo floresiensis did not descend from Homo erectus, but that its skeletal characteristics of its limb bones and its curved phalanges are much like Homo habilis. Page 136 says the following.

    "Another view, promulgated by Lee Berger, director of the paleoanthropology unit at the University of Wiwatersrand in Johannesburg, holds that Australopithecus africanus, which has relatively longer arms and shorter legs compared to Lucy, represents the more primitive, arboreal condition, and cannot therefore be derived from Australopithecus afarensis. Instead, he concludes that the two were contemporaries, and that Australopithecus africanus is the most logical ancestor for genus Homo.

    Whatever is the case, the earliest members of genus Homo appeared in Africa by 2.3 million years ago."

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I think that Homo floresiensis descended from Homo habilis, or at least from a species represented by at least one of the fossils which some claim is of Homo habilis. Homo floresiensis was definitely not our species of human and yet it was also definitely a species of human. The book by scientist Morwood says Homo floresiensis made stone tools, used fire, hunted Stegodon and Komodo dragons, and the front of its skull looked very human except that its forehead (of specimen LB1) is very short, and that the cranial capacity inside the skull was only 380 cc (for specimen LB1).

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