How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
Actually nicolaou my reading of your post is that this is the most significant factor in your alienation from JWs:
Of course I found I couldn't have a free and open discussion about these things with my Mum or 'brothers and sisters'. I began to feel isolated and was soon on my way out.
Not the details of doctrine itself, but the culture of not being able to discuss problems. I can relate to that.
I will point out that we live in a culture that values being able to question authority and express different viewpoints. This runs right up against JW deference to the GB. If you accept the dominant values of an open society including open discussion and questioning authority, this is bound to undermine the JW belief structure. The actual points of contention are (almost) immaterial.
Me neither breakfast of champions. I have been reading books about influence and persuasion and it has caused me to reflect that the reasons for me doing things may be more complicated (not to say completely different) than the stories I have told myself about events. In particular the work of Professor Cialdini. We like to think we make rational and logical choices, but the hard evidence(!) shows that social proof and authority are far more important influences on most important decisions most people make.
And I just wonder what implications this has for people who would attempt to persuade or convince JWs that they are wrong. Logic, reasoning and evidence are probably among the least effective tools.
And I just wonder what implications this has for people who would attempt to persuade or convince JWs that they are wrong. Logic, reasoning and evidence are probably among the least effective tools.....SBF
So is everything else,if a JW is Happy Being a JW..
A Loyal WBT$ JW Will Fight To The Death..
TO STAY STUPID..
Well actually, OutLaw, I would argue otherwise.
My experience and reading indicates to me that JWs tend to leave JWs, not because their beliefs have been refuted, but because the beliefs and practice of being a JW have been displaced by their needs being met elsewhere.
People make new friends, join a new club, meet a new partner, start a new career, move to a new location, or start education. These are the life events that tend to precipitate leaving JWs - other than being forced out.
So if we are really interested in persuading JWs to leave (and I'm not sure we should be, I'm just following the argument through) then the most important thing to do would be to demonstrate how leaving is viable and how others have done it successfully. Logical arguments about doctrine might be intellectually stimulating, not to mention psychologically reinforcing for people who have already left or decided to leave, but don't play much role in the decusion itself.
People make new friends, join a new club, meet a new partners, start a new career, move to a new location, or start education. These are the life events that tend to precipitate leaving JWs - other than being forced out.
In WatchTower World..
Your not making new friends outside of the WBT$..
Your not joining a club of any kind..
Your not going to accept a new partner outside of the WBT$.
JW`s usually look for the Kingdom Hall when they move to a new location..
JWs rarely pursue an education..So nothing you listed,applies to a Loyal WBT$ JW..
Your looking for a person "already on their way out" of the WBT$ JW`S..
And....That`s the Point..
Unless someone has already decided they are leaving the WBT$ JW`s..
You don`t have much hope of persuading them of anything.
Your more likely to scare them back into the Waiting Arms of the WBT$..
An interesting Thread Slimboy !
I am the same as Cofty in that I left because it was not true, certainly not The truth !
But I really do need to sit down and consider what persuaded me to leave, as, whatever the triggers were, they may help others to make the same move. A move that took courage, I did not know if my marriage would survive, I knew it would cost me dear, loss of income (most of my clients were JW's), loss of friends etc etc, the experience of many others who have left of course.
I shall return to this Thread and explain what I think happened.
OutLaw there's a difference between what JWs are supposed to do and what they actually do. The very fact that so many Watchtowers warn against: education, marriage outside, friends outside, joining groups in the community, losing contact with Kingdom Hall when relocating, is telling. If these things were not a problem among JWs they wouldn't need to write about it all the time. They warn against these things because they occur so frequently and because they are likely to draw people away from JWs.
Phizzy I'd be really interested to hear your further reflections on why you the decision to leave despite it appearing to be against your interests.
Not to be rude but my impression of people who believe they have left JWs for purely doctrinal reasons is that they are a bit unreflective, not to say enamoured by an idealised version of themselves and motivations.
People follow the crowd. We all look around us for clues as to what's the smart thing to do. And we look to authority as well. None more so than JWs.
That's why I think it might be very interesting if JWs start to decline in numbers. It would send a terribly demoralising signal to JWs. That combined with the loss of authority on the part of the GB might pave the way for a disorderly unwinding of some sort, rather than a gradual decline.
David Voas predicted this outcome.
Hi Slim'. You're right, my frustration at being unable to discuss what I was learning with the people I loved was incredibly isolating but your opening question asks how we know JWs are wrong and that was all about doctrine.
At first I just couldn't make WT doctrine fit with scripture, later I found I couldn't make scripture fit with reality.
I'm still learning . .
WT loyalists are not overly concerned about being right or wrong.
They are concerned with "having the Truth".