News Flash: New Reveal Article

by Sugar Shane 116 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  Fisherman

  Why do you respond to "ethical responsibility" by using arguments from the legal system? Ethics are separate, and that's why jwfacts explicitly mentions them separately ("ethical and in some places, legal responsibility" to report). You may argue the government cannot force the church to do something, but ethics goes beyond legal and is about "how should we (any person) act?" Answer: help prevent further abuse where possible by reporting abusers to the police

  What you say sounds ridiculous. Here is why:
  

  Relating to church confidentiality, you should write a letter to the SC or to Congress and explain to them why you feel that that the 1st is unethical maybe they will trash the constitution because you feel it is unethical? Maybe someone should also get the US gov to abolish the constitution because they think that lawyer client privileged is also unethical and give them any reasons they like (but remeber do not use any legal reasons, tell them that they should do it for ethical reasons) or tell the bar association that decides ethical conduct for lawyers, that lawyers are unethical, or better yet tell them that they are unethical because they could stop a lot of crime if they reported their clients to the police or maybe they should be told that it is ok, that they feel it is ethical for them not to report killers and thieves, only child abusers because that is unethical of them not to report them. After all, it is ethical and it will help society to get rid of child abusers.. no no no that may be a legal move, better yet ask all the lawyers to turn in their clients voluntarily on the grounds that you feel it is unethical to help someone that could be a criminal. Give them any reason you like as long as they are helping the Police fight crime... It is late. Good night.
  
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  jhine

  Fisherman you posted The church exists under US constitutional provisions . IT DOES NOT EXIST TO PROSECUTE CRIMES OR TO PROVIDE PHYSICAL PROTECTION FOR CHILDREN . THAT IS THE DUTY OF CAESAR .So why the hypocritical vilification of the Catholic Church .?
  Does Caesar care more about the little children than the WT ?
  What about the organisation where it exists in other countries than the US ?
  Jan
• 

  FindTheLost

  My 2 cents worth is this:

  Elders have to get out of their insular box that surrounds them and pursue building a rapport with local law enforcement. Elders who have already meet with different Police Investigating abuse team will have business cards of Detectives they have met and phone numbers to get a hold of them.
  

  So when an abused child or a rape victim goes to the Elders anything said should be stopped by the Elders, and they could say "May I introduce you to "so and so" Detective at Nameless City, he/she is a wonderfully caring person. I DO want to help you through this time of trouble for you / your family, but this is a crime and as such should be taken care of by people in the best position to do this." Elders should be reassuring that everything will be okay and they are here to give the moral and spiritual strength during this time.

  This way, there is reporting of a crime (there isn't a clergy/laity privilege because no confession was done by the sinner). Later the Elders can hold a JC if they so choose after the victim's testimony is safely taken down by the police (a copy of the report can be given to the victim who can hand it to the Elders), and after the perp have been given their statement to the police.

  There is no need for a confrontation between the victim and the perp.
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  Fisherman

  So why the hypocritical vilification of the Catholic Church .?

  All churches enjoy the first. Publishing allegations about the wolf guarding the hen house does not attempt to challenge RC church rights of freedom of speech (church/ penitent) NO JW whatsoever has ever aid and abet the gov to go after the Catholic church for any reason whatsoever nor have they used any means legal or otherwise to do so.
  
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  Fisherman

  Does Caesar care more about the little children than the WT ?

  WT should care more and it is the spiritual duty of shepherds to protect the sheep. But we are tallking about liability and legal responsibility to provide physical protection not spiritual duty.
  
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  Fisherman

  What about the organisation where it exists in other countries than the US ?

  That is the issue the that WT is having in the UK
  
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  Pistoff

  Fisherman wants to hang on to the idea that an organization can break laws and get away with it, all under the guise of religious freedom.

  And he has all of the same old wrong arguments: religious freedom (jaw dropping, that religions in the modern day have to be told they can't tolerate child sexual abuse!) and comparing it to gay rights and gay marriage.

  Gays are CONSENTING ADULTS; children who are raped (and sex with a minor cannot be consensual, by law) are not consenting adults.

  Watchtower is making the same mistakes, and committing the same crimes, that the Catholic Church made for decades and is slowly realizing are wrong; they see it as a sin, not a crime; they fail to report; they prevent 'talk' about the perp from circulating (often the only thing that protects children) and they are using their own judicial committees and the law to punish, NOT the perps, but the victims.

  And this argument, totally without legal merit:

  "in the us, jw are not failing to report child abuse when they are accused of not reporting child abuse on the basis that church confidentiality privilege is rooted in the first amendment, so when JW are accused of not reporting (or failing to report it) as many state laws mandate it, WT has a legal basis under certain conditions -church confidentiality rooted in the 1st amendment."

  The problem is that when a child abuser confesses or is brought before the elders, the purpose and reality is NOT confidential, as in a priest/penitent relationship; there are 3 elders present, and they call New York for legal counsel.

  The purpose of the judicial committee is JUDICIAL, not like a priest/penitent relationship that is designed to protect confession, so courts have ruled that they cannot claim the confidentiality argument.

  That is what came out in the Candace Conti case, that WT can no longer claim confidentiality.

  So yes, the courts will decide and HAVE decided.
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  Fisherman

  When any person wants to report a crime or file a complaint, etc, he can either report it to the police or government agency directly or he can choose to call his lawyer for legal advice and follow the advice of his lawyer.

  When CA reporting is state law, church elders can choose to contact their lawyers (WT legal who are also church ministers) and still meet the church penitent conditions for confidentiality, and follow their lawyers advice.

  Whatever the legal consequences that could result from doing that is being handled by the lawyers who gave legal advice.

  Some people do not like that, but it does not make a difference what people like. Caesar has the authority and power to legislate (and choose to enforce if he wishes) what the church shall or shall not do, and the church must obey Caesar (Not what people like the church to do) but by the same token the church enjoys freedom of worship in the US in-spite of what people like the church to do..
  
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  Fisherman

  It is only my view. Thanks for reading my posts. That is all folks.
  
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  talesin

  You need to apply some basics of debate, fisherman. This,

  .

  Are you dictating the morality that a boy 16 or younger should not get married to a 69 year old man( It is legal )? Do you want to use legal means to force your morality upon others.

  is called a 'straw man' argument (or non argument, actually). Straw man will always get picked up on in this forum, as will 'red herring', etc.

  ____________________________________________

  As for my other comment, it's not up for debate. I think I was very clear. : )