From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine? (page 2)

Pallbearer

Hi there Disillusioned JW!

I want to thank you for asking these very pointed and helpful questions.

You said:

Regarding those mainstream non-JW churches that teach a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, do they believe that Earth will become totally destroyed and later replaced with a totally different new Earth, or do they believe our Earth will become severely damaged and then fully restored/repaired (and made better than it ever was) and made new in that sense? Likewise do they believe the heavens (where they say God lives?) will be completely destroyed and replaced with a totally different new heavens, or do they mean some other kind of heavens will be destroyed?

Pallbearer

Hello Sea Breeze, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

To quote myself, this is what I said in the opening post:

I have a hunch that this particular "idea" (teaching) is one [that] no other church or religion complies with because, for one thing, they all believe that the earth is going to be burned up.

This is what you said to DJW:

DJW, I think a literal reading is just what it says... NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth.
"the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." - 2 Peter 3: 10

Unlike the churches of Christendom, the Watchtower Society does not believe that the heavens are to LITERALLY “pass away”. Also, unlike the churches of Christendom, the Watchtower Society does not believe that the earth is to LITERALLY “be burned up”. Christendom believes the earth will become totally destroyed and later replaced with a totally different new earth. This is what distinguishes Christendom’s “idea” of the doctrine "From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained" from that of the Watchtower Society. Thus, Christendom has their version of this doctrine, and the Watchtower Society has its version.

I think that it is safe to say that the Watchtower Society’s understanding of this doctrine is definitely unique--no other church or religion presents it the same way.

Thanks,

Paul

Sea Breeze

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3: 10

Paul,

The WT is certainly not unique in picking and choosing which verses they take as literal and which verses they wave away as symbolic because they don't like what it says. The church has been plagued with this kind of nonsense from very early on.

The bible teaches that there will be a literal paradise earth (people will still have the sin nature though) under the kingdom reign of Jesus Christ, and after that the universe will be rolled up like a scroll and re-created, completely unblemished by sin and rebellion.

Many billions of people who want to live with God will get to be eyewitnesses of this re-creation event.... with front row seats. It will be awesome.

Pallbearer

Thanks for replying, Sea Breeze. In regards to the issue surrounding 2 Peter 3:10 is it not the duty of a believer to determine whether the verse should be understood in a literal sense or not, based on REASON? If applied in a literal sense, do we wind up with something that's REASONABLE?

So let's analyze the verse. If God is going to literally do away with the heavens and replace them with a new heavens, what must that amount to? Well, to begin with we know that in addition to earth there are 7 other planets out there that are part of our solar system. And I must say that the photos that NASA has taken of them are outright astounding! You have probably seen these photos yourself. Having viewed them, do you really think it is REASONABLE that God would destroy our sun and the earth plus the other 7 planets? What REASON would he have for doing so?

And I do know that within my lifetime astronomers have discovered that there are countless galaxies in the vastness of space. And they know that each galaxy is composed of countless "stars" which are actually suns that are not unlike our own sun that planet earth revolves around. And what's more astounding is that they have recently found evidence of planets revolving around at least one of the so-called "stars" in our Milky Way galaxy that I know of. Wow, another solar system has been discovered!

I just did a little bit of quick research and this is what I read in regards to how many solar systems and how many planets that scientists estimate there are in just our Milky Way galaxy alone:

"Scientists have estimated that there could be tens of billions of solar systems in our Milky Way galaxy alone. Many believe that there might be as many as 100 billion."

"NASA estimates that there are at least 100 billion planets in our Milky Way alone. Others estimated that the Milky Way galaxy might have anywhere between 100 to 200 billion planets."

Is it REASONABLE that God would destroy these billions of solar systems and billions of planets that he has created?

And, so far, we have only taken into account the material part of the heavens. Yes, in the heavens, there is also the spiritual (or angelic) realm that must be accounted for. Is it REASONABLE that God would destroy the angel's residence? What REASON would he have for doing such a thing?

You probably already know what my answer to the questions would be. It does not seem logical that he would do such a thing. It would be without REASON. Therefore, the verse should not be construed in a literal sense.

I look forward to your comments.

Thanks,

Paul

vienne

From Schulz and de Vienne, Separate Identity, vol 2:

"Historic Millenarianism was defined by Norman Cohn in his 1957 work, Pursuit of the Millennium, as the belief held on the authority of Revelation 20:4-6, that after his return Christ would establish a kingdom on earth and would reign over it for a thousand years, followed by a final judgment. Cohn characterized the salvation doctrine of early and medieval millennialist sects as collective. Salvation was to be shared by the elect as a corporate body. It was “to be realized on this earth and not in some otherworldly heaven.” Deliverance was imminent and total, “so that the new dispensation will be no mere improvement on the present earth but perfection itself.” Ultimate salvation, deliverance from this evil world, would be by divine not human means. There were and are variations among millennialists, but over time this is the pattern followed by most who wished to adhere closely to New Testament doctrine. It is with minor exceptions Watch Tower faith in the Russell era."

Sea Breeze

Is it REASONABLE that God would destroy these billions of solar systems and billions of planets that he has created?

O man, who art thou that repliest against God?....Hath not the potter power over the clay...?

Who are we to call God unreasonable?

But, back to my last thought: Imagine being an eyewitness to the creation of the universe.

Jeremiah 32:17

‘Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,

Isaiah 40:26

Lift up your eyes on high and see who has created these stars,

It is mind-boggling to consider watching him in creative action forming a new universe, don't you think?

Disillusioned JW

Pallbearer, those are excellent points you made. It would indeed be bizarre for the god (God), assuming he exists, to totally destroy the entire physical heavens and the entire supernatural/spiritual heavens, assuming the latter exists, especially in light of Genesis chapter one saying that Elohim's/God's creations were good.

Diogenesister

SB I believe Jesus used to walk around the garden with Adam, just the two of them enjoying each others company. It will be like that. People just hanging out with God, enjoying him

I must admit that sounds pretty good. Imagine being able to pick God's brains and ask anything.....no need for Google lol😜

Vanderhoven7

My take on this:

Perhaps the heavens may refer to earth's atmosphere which has been compromised by pollution. The new earth would probably resemble the original garden; heaven on earth so to speak, which will be complete at the close of the millennial reign when the Holy city, new Jerusalem descends from above.

It seems there will be limited sin during the millennium itself as Jesus and the church rule over cities and nations with a rod of iron until sin is totally eradicated.

God knew Adam would sin as Christ agreed to being slain before the foundation of the world.

Men and angels were given free will or Adam would not have a choice to be victorious over sin through Christ's sacrifice and partake in the divine nature. The angels who remained faithful were made immortal as the church will be in the resurrection and those of the nations that remain faithful, at the close of the millennium.

Sounds unbelievable.... but God is going to be the big winner and the devil the big lover.

That's all folks.

Vanderhoven7

Please....devil...big loser, not big lover.

If this was generated by my phone, I could always blame the self correcting feature.

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

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