The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality

by JanH 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • Julie
    Julie

    Waiting,

    :Logical was put down for being homophobic the other day -

    I don't know anything about that

    :now JanH is teased because he's addressing the situation in a calm, positive way.

    Actually Jan is a friend of mine and I would bet the house he takes no offense and is secure enough to recognize it for the joke that it was. You need to relax.

    :Curiously, I've found that people who are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality make many jokes about it - usually at another person's expense.

    I agree and I wouldn't make a joke about/to anyone who I didn't know well enough to be confident no harm would be done. I personally have no problems with whatever people want to do, as long as no one tries to force their preferences on me, I am more than content to live and let live.

    Julie, who has been tragically misjudged

  • JanH
    JanH

    Hi folks,

    Thanks for your comments. Even you, Julie *g*

    I see most of the participants on this board had no problem seeing what I said.

    Jim really understand what I am trying to tell you. I grew up a JW, and like most heterosexual JW men, I had a serious problem with male homosexuality.

    Ironically, it was Jim Penton who helped me to understand the issues. He said that he aestethically had a big problem with male homosexuality, but he made it clear that was all it was about. And I agree. It is a question of pure aestehtics, not of morality. And when I realized that, I understood that any "moral" objection to gay men is just nonsense: an excuse for allowing personal prejudices to override your sense of humanity.

    It is a worn and overused line, but I have friends who are gay (men and women). I don't have any problems with what they do. What helped me realize the insensitive nature of anti-gay slogans was to ask myself: How would I feel if anyone rejected my love for my woman and said it was "perverted" and "unclean" and then had the nerve to proclaim they "love the sinner but hate the sin." I would consider the whole idea absurd. If someone rejects my sexuality they reject me. If someone hates my sexuality they hate me. And I am quite convinced that gay people feel the same about their partners. So, anyone who is disgusted by gay sexuality indeed rejects persons who are gay and proclaims them to be subhuman and unclean.

    I am sure that lots of straight people would object to stuff I do sexually if they knew about it (don't ask!). Possibly even some gay people would object; I don't know. I have just one comment to that: go fuck yourselves. And I essentially hold the same position about the anti-gay sentiments a few dysfunctional people have expressed on this board.

    That said, I think we can be proud of most members of this board. Most of us have been JWs, being indoctrinated with hate towards all sorts of allegedly "deviating" behaviour, homosexuality in particular. Yet, all but the most narrow-minded here are open about it. Straigh people may not really "understand" those who have same-sex sexual preferences, but we totally accept it is one of the variations in preferences and taste that makes life varied and interesting.

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • TR
    TR

    Jan,

    thanks for that info. Makes sense. Guess I don't have to worry about eating 'natural' food any more if the whole world is trying to kill me! Pass me a greaseburger, please!

    TR

    "cults suck"

  • waiting
    waiting

    hey julie

    Nice to know the background of your & Jan's friendship. I understand that words said jokingly to a friend sometimes come off curiously to a stranger. Thanks for clarification.

    waiting

  • waiting
    waiting

    The other gay thread is approx. 5 pages long now, this one growing slowly. I think there's another one going on also. Several gays are posting, who have jw background and possibly jw parents. With all this communication, one type of experience is totally lacking. Parents, family members of gays - in particular, jw parents with gay children.

    That said, I fit the bill. I've known one of my children was gay since he was about 10, not too hard to start to see if a parent looks. I, being the average jw, tried to help/get him to fit in with the other jw kids. He fit in great with the girls (he's handsome [modeling contract] 6'4" blond, with broad shoulders, funny & cruely sarcastic). The guys were cold and unmerciful towards him. He couldn't wait to leave home & the jw's.

    The best thing that he did growing up was to fight me in the 4th grade and take music, join the band, etc., etc. That was his grounding force during all those years. The other kids who take music are usually not the most popular kids either, and tend to be smart, so he had kids to hang with. His major in college (with attending scholarships) was music. He's now in Law School - striving for the top 20%. However, that interfers with his drinking nights, so it's a hard choice. Dork.

    So much for his background. When he finally told me straight out he was gay (a parent can accept a lot when it's not said straight out), we went through a year of barely speaking - not really angry, just didn't know what to say. We finally agreed to disagree - and to remake our relationship. We had lunch every two weeks (he was in college, and a free lunch is not to be passed up), and talked about "other things." We learned we could be friends and accept each other. It worked, much credit on his part. Btw, my husband is as - or more - accepting than I was, much credit on his part also.

    We're older now, and we're still friends. But for a jw to accept their own children as sexual people who are basically cursed by the concepts the parents live by - is extremely hard, even heartbreaking. Upon leaving the WTBTS, it's easier - but old ways die hard.

    I have tried to live by a new pattern upon leaving the WTBTS, "Live and Let Live." Not too hard to do if not touching me personally. But to be tolerant - to the point of accepting - Live and Let Live - is really quite hard to do.

    I worry about my son. Being harrassed and beaten by homophobics, aids, etc., are realities.

    waiting

    ps - I find it hard to comprehend that there are no others here who don't have close family members who are gay. It would be nice to read how it was handled, in view of our being jw's. How do/did others handle having mothers/fathers, brothers/sisters, sons/daughters, who came to them (as active jw's) and said "I'm gay." Particularily, "I'm gay and have a lover."

  • XJWBill
    XJWBill

    A philosopher is among us!

    Jan, thanks for your very lucid explication of the "natural" fallacy. I especially appreciated your point about its constant misuse in commercial advertising, which preys upon all of us.

    This thread and the others on this topic lately have served to confirm what I have long intutively felt to be true: the reason the Bible writers condemn so harshly male homosexuality (with only one passing reference to female homosexuality) is really because of their own "aesthetic" aversion to it (and in the other case, possibly their privately tolerant attitude to the idea of two girls getting it on, as many guys have expressed on this board).

    So its nice to hear a call for logical thinking on this subject. Would that the rest of your fellow straight men might hear it! And look in the mirror at their own sexual activities. Some rules are necessary, but there really are much more important things in the world to worry about than who's doing who. Thanks again, Jan.

    To waiting: bless you. You have done your son the greatest kindness--real love--by accepting him just as he is. I remember I was terrified of coming out to my own mother, a non-JW and pretty open-minded lady. I was afraid, though, of being rejected and hated--even though I knew my mom would go to hell and back for me. When I finally did tell her, at age 24, her first reaction was "Why didn't you tell me sooner?" It made no difference to her--"You are part of me," she said. She just kept on loving me. Thanks, Mom--God bless and rest your soul.

    Bill

    "If I were hanged on the highest hill,
    I know whose love would follow me still--
    My mother's."--Robert Louis Stevenson

  • teejay
    teejay

    Jan,

    Deep shit. I came to the topic late, but half-way down I was thinking along
    with several of the others: "so what's your point?" Glad you clarified it.

    As I mentioned on another thread, I don't understand "male" homosexuality,
    and you pointed to the most likely reason why: aesthetics. Otherwise, I
    couldn't care less what people do as long as it doesn't involve me against
    my (or anybody else's) will. The bible's arguments against it don't carry much
    weight for me.

    Excellent post.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    waiting,

    Good for you. I asked a friend not long ago how they'd react if their child
    came out of the closet. They cringed and said they'd have a problem. I
    had/have a hard time understanding. I don't care what my children do
    for a living, if they marry (or who), where they live. I just want them to
    be happy and come close to reaching their full potential. Life is full of
    uncertainties, but one thing they will always be able to count on no
    matter what: Daddy loves them to pieces.

    peace

  • AcapulcoGold
    AcapulcoGold

    Dear JanH, a quick question: is this yet another theory of "yours" plagiarised from the thesis of Kim Oyhus?

  • JanH
    JanH

    How many IDs do you have on this board?

    PS: It's obvious you don't know who Kim Øyhus is, nor what he does, and neither do you know what plagiarism isnor what a thesis is. It seems your skill level is limited to being able to create new IDs on this board.

    *plonk*

    - Jan
    --
    Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

  • AcapulcoGold
    AcapulcoGold

    yea but that still doesn't change the fact that

    they're kim oyhus' ideas and not yours -

    funny how you "overlooked" crediting the idea to it's author

    author is an interesting word to understand if you like trying to

    understand words

    acapulcogold.

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