Providing salvation is not that important

by pixel 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JoenB75


    There is no doubt natural evil draw men closer to God. We see in it fishing communities where people in the old days did not know if they would return from the roaring sea. I remember when we had the Tsunami i Thailand, many people were seeing that as a flood warning from God and judgment against the much immorality there. Certainly, natural disasters in Philippines have not shaken their faith. If you are in danger from natural disasters, you may be compelled to reconcile with your maker.

    Philosophically, it is difficult for men to reconcile the loving Christ with the "Hidden God of creation". God shows his love in his way. Some are vessells of destruction, some are vessels of glory (Romans 9). The answer is the Cross and the Cross the world considers foolishness. Christ urges us to not perish but repent (Luke 13:3)

  • cofty

    Joen - Congratulations! We debated this topic over a period of a couple of years and there were more than 2,500 contributions from dozens of theists. In all that time nobody managed to come up with a response as ridiculous as 'natural evil draw men closer to God'.

    I think you might be a troll.

    The juxtaposition of that expression of total moral vacuity with a smiley face is really jarring.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    Are you aware of the gnostic origins of Calvinism?

    Reccommend reading the book by that name by Ken Johnson.

  • cofty

    Christian (Calvinist) 'morality' is beneath contempt.

  • JoenB75

    Sea Breeze,

    Calvinism has some good points. It points out the Christian serves a Sovereign God in control and other stuff that offends the atheist humanist. But of course it does no justice to the fullness of the reconciliation the Sovereign God has in store for mankind

  • Steel

    Doesn’t half the book of romans or basically the entire New Testament after the gospels teach you can’t earn your salvation ?

    It’s like these shitheads have never even read the thing.

  • waton

    since this is about the study article 47 too, in the OP. At the day of atonement individual sins were dealt with too, but conveniently omitted last Sunday. There was the scape goat, the goat for Azazel, that had all the non-adamic sins confessed on him, and chased away into the wilderness.

    Point of the article when it comes right down to thous is: :

    The rank and file has to purchase salvation from the religion, the Levites, the modern day and future priests, the wt/ anointed F&DS, the GB.

    during the kingdom of 1914 and the millennium too.

  • Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut - No JW thinks of Jesus' agony as physical punishment suffered vicariously for what they deserve for the things they do wrong every day.
    Ask a JW why Jesus died and they will pontificate about Adam.

    I disagree....

    I don't know about "pontificating" but if you ask a JW why Jesus died, they will tell you that he died as a ransom sacrifice to buy back the life that Adam lost for all mankind. They believe that each of us has inherited sin from Adam and Jesus sacrifice covers that however they also believe that if they continually choose to willingly sin and think that they can just expect to be forgiven, they are greatly mistaken. They do not take the agony that Jesus went through, lightly. They don't condone a sin during the week and ask for forgiveness on Sunday type of attitude.

    P.S. I'm not a fan of the Watchtower organization either but I think we should be accurate about the claims we make and we need to avoid condemn everything they say and do just because we're angry at them.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    The concept of "Original Sin" was developed after the NT was written. It found acceptance in order to justify Infant Baptism. Many Church Fathers saw sin having been introduced by Cain, not by Adam.

    John 3:16 does not say that "God gave his son so that people could kill him". It demands "belief". That belief is not speaking of "mental assent". Rather, the concept is of "allegiance" (works).

    The Hebrews thought of "salvation" corporately, nationally.

    Explanations for the reason and efficacy of Jesus' (sacrificial) death have gone through several major iterations. Augustine's idea lasted almost 1000 years until Anselm brought in his ideas, which were based on medieval concepts. Others followed with their "explanations", including Abelard, Pelagius, Thomas Aquinas, and so forth. Why does God only love people because they killed his son? Who received the ransom payment-- some said it was paid to Satan because he was holding humanity captive.

    As you spend the billions of years singing praises, while Andromeda collides with the Milky Way and the Sun dies, think of me. Who wants to live forever?


  • cofty
    they will tell you that he died as a ransom sacrifice to buy back the life that Adam lost for all mankind. They believe that each of us has inherited sin from Adam and Jesus sacrifice covers - Pete Zahut

    Then we agree 100%

    Ask a Christian about why Jesus died and Adam or inherited sin won't even feature in the answer.

    To christianity Jesus' suffering was a vicarious PUNISHMENT not a legal transaction.

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