To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

by Amazing 91 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    First, Simon and other Mods, please let this thread run its course for a while. If it gets too dicey, then I will move or lock it. My goal is not to have a big flame war, but to expose an issue for what it is.

    IW: Since the other thread was locked, then lets make this real simple and get to the point:

    You state:

    Bill,

    I forcefully opposed your posts concerning Raymond Franz. I must now apologize for all the things I said.

    Fair enough. No one faults you for that. No one worships Ray as some allege ... you are within your rights to apologize to Bill, or whatever.

    Now you introduce this:

    Someone I trust has informed me of some things that have caused me to feel that without a doubt your position was the correct one.

    Ah, this is the crux of what I was driving at. I asked you for facts because you state you have some. Get them out in the open and stop dodging bullets with self-righteous scantimonious come backs. It is now YOUR responsibility to tell us what Ray Franz is hiding. Since you have "FACTS", and I trust that you would not lie aor banty about BS, then let's hear them. Stop all the presses, and inform we the victims ... yes WE because as I stated in a previous post, I too am a vvictim ... I want to know this great truth you have because IF you have something, then the victims need to know ... that is IF you really care about victims.

    My point in calling Ray Franz later today is not to argue with you ... but to get his side of the story and see how HE wants to respond. I do not speak for Ray Franz. If he chooses to publish a response, then I will do that if he wants me too. I do not necessarily side with Ray Franz ... I simply believe in fairness, to hear both sides ... and to date, no one has provided any evidence to show that Ray Franz is wrong or that he knows something beyond what he has already said in print.
    You did MORE than merely apologize to Bill Bowen ... as you tried to make it appear as a mere apology in your previous thread that is now locked. Instead, you reverse your entire course by saying that you were wrong in """ALL""" you said against Bill. Then you continue on with stating that you now have some knowledge from a "trusted" friend who has convinced you that you were wrong. FINE, THEN STOP DODGING BULLETS AND TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW.
    This is what sickens me about the Bowen worshipers (a little reverse logic so you can see how the Bill camp sounds) ... the Bill worshipers constantly imply that Ray Franz knows something he is not telling and he is obligated to tell ... okay, fair enough ... then what in the HELL is it? STOP DODGING THE BULLET with BS whining and TELL US!!!
    Ray Franz should have supported you and not by his silence add support to the Watchtower! Whatever he knows about Greenlees and Chitty he should reveal and he, imo, should also openly support the Silent Lambs. He of course has the right to do as he pleases, but integrity and love for brother should, imo, move him to speak out before his death when the things he knows will die with him.

    Again, in addition to your "apology" you make more allegations that Ray Franz knows something that he should tell ... and you now obligate him to support Silent Lambs ... then what is it that Ray is not telling? Why must HE support Silent Lambs?

    I and others are working behind the scenes to bring justice to the victims ... but we are not supporting Silent Lambs. Must we too now sign up and become members of Silent Lambs and follow and worship Bill Bowen? I hardley think so. Bill has his thing to do, and I am sure he is doing his best, as we all are, in our OWN personal way. Bill Bowen is not the real problem here ... rather it is the whining worshipers ... I wish the Bill worshipers would stop trying to convert every ex-JW to their Bill Bowen Silent Lamb organization and get off their high horses.

    Ray Franz has done what he can do, and it has been a lot. IF you and others expect MORE of Ray Franz then by all means, TELL US and cut to the chase and stop the bullshit about knowing something ... as though there is some big F--king secret ... FOR THE SAKE OF THE VICTIMS PLEASE TELL ... The ball is now in YOUR court ... it is now YOUR responsibility ... so, let's see if you whine and dodge bullets or have the balls to tell the rest of us so we can join you in apologizing to Bill.

    I have no particular side here. I am just wanting to be fair and get to the truth, whatever that may be. I am sick of the BS, and simply want an answer instead of rhetoric. On the other hand, IF you are in error, are you as willing to apologize to Ray Franz - publicly? - Jim Whitney

  • cat1759
    cat1759

    Wow, will be watching this thread.

    Everyone does the best they can. Maybe both these men have done all they can.

    They have certainly supported and helped alot of us with the decisions they have made.

    I didn't know there was a Ray or Bill Club.

    Cathy

  • teejay
    teejay

    A lot (most) of what was said in the other thread bothered me, including bjc2read's assertion that, "people on this discussion board have made a "god" out of" Ray. Didn't care for that at all. Thinking Bill is wrong about something isn't the same as worshipping somebody else.

    Simon's said in the past that he didn't want threads like this on his board and it made perfect sense. So, if he meant that and aims to enforce that position, I don't expect this thread to last very long. I *do* believe that if IW has reliable information, it shouldn't matter who reveals it. In fact, if Ray doesn't (and I doubt he will) it's now IW's responsibility to do so.

    p.s. If IW feels Bill is owed an apology and honestly hopes to offer him one, I see it as a serious responsibility that she do so in a place where he's most likely to see it. As far as I know--one of Bill's parting comments was that he would no longer come here--Bill doesn't even read this board anymore. So why post to him here?

  • obiwan
    obiwan

    Why will Bill not come here anymore?Does he feel he doesn't belong here?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Teejay:

    Good points ... and if this thread degrades I will be the first to lock it ... what I am trying to do is get IW or others who have knowledge the full cooperation to get the word out to us.

    You also noted:

    As far as I know--one of Bill's parting comments was that he would no longer come here--Bill doesn't even read this board anymore. So why post to him here?

    Amen ... that is a salient point ... something is afoot here unless we are having our collective chains yanked ... thanks again for your on-target feedback. - Jim W.

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    teejay said:

    I don't expect this thread to last very long.

    Me either.

    obiwan asked:

    Why will Bill not come here anymore?Does he feel he doesn't belong here?

    Bill Bowen is not a man who enjoys criticism. Like it or not, when you post comments on this discussion board, people will disagree with you.

    Mr. Bowen made some very scathing remarks about Ray Franz here in the past. If you look through silentlambs post history on this website you can find several threads discussing this topic.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/member/5853.ashx

    When confronted about such outrageous accusations and allegations, he backed off and posted a sarcastic thread in which he gave a backhanded apology for his slander, found here:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/38277/520343/post.ashx#520343

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/38334/520675/post.ashx#520675

    Then Bill Bowen posted a final thread in which he apologized for the things he said about Ray Franz. He then stated in no uncertain terms that it would be his last post on JW.com

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/39453/539656/post.ashx#539656

    With that being stated this will be silentlambs last post on JWD. I am starting a new forum on the new silentlambs website and all future posting will go there. The forum will be moderated and hopefully will be a kinder safer place for abuse survivors to interact.

    If you take the time to look through the Member Directory, you will note that Bill Bowen, under the username silentlambs, formerly used this website almost daily with updates regarding his work and as a virtual corkboard to post messages for people. I guess he did not like criticism, even when he was wrong, and he instead chose to return to his silentlambs website and silentlambs work, and leave JW.com permanently under the guise of devoting his time entirely elsewhere.

    Hope this helps clear things up for you.

  • Scully
    Scully

    teejay writes:

    A lot (most) of what was said in the other thread bothered me, including bjc2read's assertion that, "people on this discussion board have made a "god" out of" Ray. Didn't care for that at all. Thinking Bill is wrong about something isn't the same as worshipping somebody else.

    I'm with you on that, teejay. I have a great deal of respect for Ray Franz for what he has done. I also have respect for Bill for what he has accomplished with Silentlambs. I am grateful for what each one offers to the JW and ex-JW community. Each person has different needs when leaving the JWs, and like it or not, we NEED the diversity of people that we have here, in order to help as many people as possible meet the needs that they have as they leave the organization.

    To say that we must do everything we can for every cause is ridiculous, because our energies will be divided and that will be reflected in our work for all those various causes. Far better to focus on one or two meaningful (to the person participating) projects and give them the best that we have, imo, instead of diluting our energies by getting involved in more projects than we care to be involved with.
    Simon's said in the past that he didn't want threads like this on his board and it made perfect sense. So, if he meant that and aims to enforce that position, I don't expect this thread to last very long. I *do* believe that if IW has reliable information, it shouldn't matter who reveals it. In fact, if Ray doesn't (and I doubt he will) it's now IW's responsibility to do so.

    Amazing has said he will lock this thread when (not "if" LOL) it gets out of hand.

    You're right that IW - if her information is as reliable as she claims it to be - now has the responsibility to report it. Particularly if it pertains to child abuse. The law (and this is what I am basing my comments on, not on any curiosity on my part) is quite clear that a person who has information about child sexual abuse is obliged to take that information to the authorities, regardless of whether it is personal knowledge or second-hand or third-hand knowledge. Let the authorities sort it out.
    Having said that, I would prefer NOT to see any disclosure of that kind on this board until it has been thoroughly investigated by law enforcement. Actually, to be perfectly blunt, I'd rather not read it here at all. Just my preference, mind you.
    p.s. If IW feels Bill is owed an apology and honestly hopes to offer him one, I see it as a serious responsibility that she do so in a place where he's most likely to see it. As far as I know--one of Bill's parting comments was that he would no longer come here--Bill doesn't even read this board anymore. So why post to him here?

    Good question. Hopefully IW is offering a sincere apology, without any intent of stirring up animosity. Perhaps this apology is being cross-posted to other places where Bill is known to frequent, and is being offered here, as this was where the original "discussion" took place.

    Love, Scully
  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    I have a great deal of respect for Ray Franz for what he has done. I also have respect for Bill for what he has accomplished with Silentlambs. I am grateful for what each one offers to the JW and ex-JW community. Each person has different needs when leaving the JWs, and like it or not, we NEED the diversity of people that we have here, in order to help as many people as possible meet the needs that they have as they leave the organization.

    Well said Scully. My sentiments exactly.

  • obiwan
    obiwan

    Thanks reborn2002 it does indeed.

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I think it sets a dangerous precedent when long-time posters are allowed to use their personal credibility to make bold statements or strong implications against other persons based on THEIR OWN personal interpretation of privately held information. Just because someone is "well known" or a "good and honest person" doesn't mean they can't misinterpret a situation.

    It goes against the principles of an open and free society for individuals to privately be the judge and jury of "secret information" and then to publicly condemn individuals and damage their character without a full explanation. This is not fair to the individuals being condemned or "warned" about and can easily lead to deliberately libelous statements or damage caused by a simple misinterpretations of the "facts". Both parties need to have an opportunity to explain their side of a matter.

    It is almost always dangerous territory to make strong statements about another, and the one doing so must be prepared to back up those statements with solid facts. And so many times these comments just don't need to be made in the first place.

    Path

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