To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

by Amazing 91 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Satanus

  Maybe not.

  SS
• 

  SixofNine

  I changed the quote LW
• 

  teejay

  Thanks, Waiting...
  
  ... for what you said earlier. It needed to be said.
• 

  waiting

  You're welcome, tj. Appreciate your note.

  Hey 6? Remember when Onacruise was using your "dumbest comment" statement to prove impoliteness? Well, I stumbled onto a quote which the poster you were addressing could have used as a proper retort:

  The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they are going to be when you kill them. William Clayton

  smirk.
• 

  Prisca

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/56179/823024/post.ashx#823024

  Well said Waiting. I think some male posters here have a hard time getting away from the elder/MS mentality.
• 

  Brummie

  I really shouldnt come back into this thread since I promised myself I wouldnt . But..

  Whatever IW said would have had her hounded by a pack and her every word scrutinised and held up as being sinister simply because it wasnt given Ray a round of applause! This has been demonstrated right here. She never even said a bad thing about him but simply disagreed. I'm glad she chose to shut up when she did. It would have just got bigger and bigger until she was left feeling totally anxious and overpowered. Her thread was locked, this one should have been. I'm not a mod but if I had have been it would have been locked from the outset. Its got nothing to do with me, just my opinion.

  Another excellent poster has had to scurry out of the elders reach for saying something that got blown out of proportion.. She did well to dodge the bullets, now whose got the smoking gun?

  Brummie

  IW< your response below is well received. I hope it will now be cleared and apologies given to you in a new thread. You certainly have a valuble case.

  In defense of Jst2laws I can see why he felt the need to put a pause on the 1st thread even though it was a misunderstanding. It wasnt censoring you but just waiting to see if it was wise to continue on in light of what happened last year when all this came out. It was a temporary lock based on an uncertainty not based on anything malicious.

  Its a shame that you are leaving, I hope you will reconsider.
• 

  ros

  Simon said:

  I've seen the kind of character assassination by rumour and insinuation that has gone on in the past and it appears there is an attempt to make some kind of coordinated attack on Ray Franz again. I have my own suspicions as to which 'obsessed character' is behind it and can recognise some of the patterns and language. They have managed to turn Silentlambs almost into an 'anti-Ray' group and isolate them from what should be their main supporters.

  I was thinking the same thing.

  It would be a shame to see even more damage done because of misguided and ill conceived attacks on an old man of 90.

  Numerous references have been made to Ray being 90 in these threads. He's 81.

  Incidently, I first met Bill Bowen at a small "Richard Rawe" exJW conference in a remote little resort town in the U.S. state of Washington. Barbara was there, and while I had previously had some phone and e-mail correspondence with her, I had not met her personally before this small gathering, and it was a genuine pleasure to finally meet. AlanF and Peter Gregerson were there, whom I had known personally for some years. And Venice IT, her parents, and Mulan were there, and it was a pleasure to meet them as well. I had heard of Venice's dad's experience through Ray. And, Pat Garza was there. So all in all, it has turned out to be quite a memorable little get-together.

  A couple months later, I attended the abuse/rape trial of Erica in Ritzville, Washington, also attended by Bill and Barbara. I bought Erica a small toy white lamb on my way to the trial, which everyone thought was so apropo. I shared a motel room with Pat Garza and another exJW lady. I had an opportunity to discuss Pat's story with her at some length at that time.

  Attention for Bill's Silent Lambs efforts were escalating at the time. DateLine filming crews were around us each day, even filming us having dinner at the local restaurant. (I think there were maybe two restaurants in town.) Anticipation was extreme with expectation for what effect this show might have on the Watchtower Society for months before the show finally aired . All this was before Bill came out of his corner against Ray on this board, and on my forum, sometime later.

  During that time, I did not quite jump on the Silent Lambs bandwagon myself. It had nothing to do with not wanting to support victims of child abuse, or anything against Bill. My reasons were different. I had been a CASA volunteer (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for abused children--a national organization of volunteers who, as court-appointed Guardians ad Litem, represent in court children alleged to have been abused. My reluctance at that time before the Bill/Ray episode were that I thought then, and I believe now, that Bill's approach to dealing with the victims of child abuse tends to perpetrate a "victim" mentality that I do not believe is helpful or healing for the victims. I also thought it perpatuated a concept that JW victims were exceptional, rather than addressing the issue of child abuse in the world at large. For that reason, I believe there are much better, healthier and more healing resources for victims of child abuse than solely targeting the Watchtower organization.

  Let me be more clear: I think it is important and commendable to go after the Watchtower organization for what they are guilty of--which is coverup. It is right to expose them for their role in sweeping this, and other kinds of hideous crimes, under the proverbial carpet while claiming to be "The Truth". (I have heard of murders being concealed, by people who know. But certainly child abuse is right up there at the top of dispicability.) BUT, I think the issue of going after the Watchtower organization to expose them for gross negligence and protection of perpetrators should be a separate issue from that of efforts to support victims, survivors, helping them to gain a healthy mental acceptance of their self-worth as human beings. It is wrong, imo, to perpetuate the idea that what happened to them was because they were Jehovah's Witnesses. I think it is not healthful to draw them to seek celebrity status in a group for being a victim of child abuse. I do not support the concept that child abuse is solely a JW issue, although I am all for it being exposed in the Organization. The victims do not have to keep being victims. They need to heal and grow beyond the experience, just as people grow beyond many other kinds of tragedy. And they may need professional attention, as well as love and acceptance, to regain their confidence. It is not good to feed them the concept that they are pitiful survivors. The Silent Lambs movement, imo, focuses too much attention on emotionally charging the victims for being victims. Bringing down the Watchtower would not heal them.

  ~Ros
• 

  IslandWoman

  Amazing,
  

  You and Jst2laws have made assumptions from my posts that I did not mean or even say. I never said Ray Franz was hiding anything, I also never accused him of knowledge of anything that hasn't already been spoken about on this board before.

  I take great umbrage at Jst2laws who when the chips were down and Bill Bowen came here and attacked Ray Franz, Jst2laws was silent. He did not come out in defense of Ray Franz then, but now with me, he suddenly gets the courage to defend his good friend. Why do you think that is? (rhetorical)

  The personal discussion which led to my apology initially really had nothing to do with Bill Bowen and Ray Franz although it did finally turn to that subject. It centered on another event in which Ray Franz' penchant for correctness and adherence to the scriptures caused harm to a family. This conversation also included the elder/gb threads I had started recently and by the time it was done I had come to realize that what happened to this family was not too dissimilar to what happened when Bill Bowen asked Ray Franz to help, to just do anything he could or even to just remain silent. To in some way help, but Ray Franz in his way could not. So it was with this family, they suffered, they too were left hanging in the wind because Ray Franz personally objected to breaking a scripture. The scripture was not one of the Ten commandments or anything this was simply one of Paul's little instructions we all know and love, but Ray Franz let them hang and walked away. In their case permanent harm occurred, terrible irreversible harm. (you said he did not know what I was talking about, I am not surprised since this did not happen recently, it was in the late 1990s and the family lives in Florida)

  After thinking about what was said and the fact that abuse survivors should be helped and anyone who may have information just the smallest piece of information and yet withholds it is by all accounts sinning in my book, I came to the conclusion that Bill Bowen was right to ask Ray Franz to help. He was right and imo Ray was wrong for not offering something, anything in behalf of those he once led along with the GB down the path of JW false doctrine and the establishment of the Elder arrangement which has hurt so many.

  Yes, I believe Ray Franz should have helped in some way or just remain silent as Bill asked him to. But what stood in the way? I don't know, but imo Bill was right to ask and right to get upset over it. I do not though agree with his attack on Ray, Bill could have presented his case in a much more palatable manner but he didn't.

  Is it possible that any GB member in Franz' day could have no knowledge of why Chitty was put out? Or why Greenlees was put out? These men were not just insignificant elders they were anointed Governing Body members and at least one of them has been accused on this board of being a pedophile. This is big stuff, it just could be the reason why the GB stonewalls, who knows.

  At any rate, as I said on the locked thread, if Ray Franz does not want to provide info or if he has no info then he could at least say a word of encouragement to the abuse survivors. I don't mean a negative, "I never meant the two witness rule to be applied to pedophiles" or "I am against pedophilia" but a sincere and thoughtful message or recognition of their plight and their suffering in the Org., a sincere statement which is initiated by him and not in answer to some accusation.

  Why is this subject a taboo with him? Hard to understand.

  Well, I am sure there will be more questions and more complaints about my thread, but just as I said last night and had fully intended to do but decided to post to this thread rather than let false notions stand: I am out of here. Jst2laws played god and killed the thread, Amazing played god and resurrected it again. I am going to play god and not answer anyone. I have learned that no matter what I say it will be misunderstood so no point in saying anything.

  I have asked Simon to deactivate my membership.

  Brummie, you were on the mark. Thank you.

  Waiting, thank you also.

  Amazing, you said something about my making self-righteous or sanctimonious statements on the other thread, please supply the quotes you refer to.

  Simon, you said I was not standing up to a challenge or something to that effect. As I said to you in PM I have always faced and answered challenges as long as I have been on the net. I may be wrong or disliked or even hated but I do stand up and speak out what I personally feel is right. The apology thread was just that and nothing more. What I added to that discussion with this post is the direct responsibility of Amazing and Jst2laws who insisted that I give facts, lol. The only problem with that is, they had no idea what facts exactly they were asking for. I gave what I could, cannot say more on it. I believe though it would have been better not said and it would not have been said had they not doggedly pursued whatever it was they mistakenly were looking for.

  Goodnight to all,

  IW

  P.S. I would like to add that what I have said above about this family is, I swear before God and before my children, the facts and the absolute truth. If names, addresses and phone numbers are required for these things to be believed too bad, they will not be forthcoming.
• 

  ros

  Island Woman:

  You stated that you know facts that you are not at liberty to reveal. You stated that SL knows things that he does not feel compelled to reveal. Assuming that Ray knows things that you and Bill and others suggest he must know, is it possible that he is simply, justifiably, in the same situation?

  ~Ros
• 

  Simon

  ... or simply doesn't have any information?!

  Like it or not, child abuse was not so widely known about and recognised years ago and it is quite possible that he didn't have any experience of dealing with it.

  There is no evidence at all other than accusations shouted in the street that any of the GB were pedophiles and yet, many have decided to believe it and are now determined to give Ray a hard time because he won't 'come up with the evidence' to back up what they would like to believe.

  And make no mistake, they desperately need some evidence IMO because silentlambs has been making accusations without evidence and has nothing to back it up. I now see attempts to blame Ray for it all when the simple trut his, he has nothing at all to do with it.