To Jst2laws, clarification please

by IslandWoman 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Jst2laws,

    You said about Ray Franz and the Governing Body arrangement:

    he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place. This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth.

    Yet Ray Franz wrote:

    Weighing that position back then, it seemed evident to me that if a "governing body" had existed as a central administrative body in the early congregation then there should be some evidence beyond just a single meeting in Jerusalem to support this. Nowhere in the rest of the Scriptures did this appear. In all the writings of Paul, Peter, John, Luke, Jude or James, not one indication could be found that men in Jerusalem, or any centralized body of men, exercised supervisory control over what went on in the rest of the many places where Christians were located. Nothing to indicate that the activities of Paul or Barnabas or Peter or any other person were carried out under the direction and supervision of a "governing body." In Search of Christian Freedom page 47

    Your statement and Ray Franz' are contradictory. I would appreciate a clarification.

    Thank you,

    IW

  • gumby
    gumby
    he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place

    That statement in itself is wrong. The Governing Body was already in existence well BEFORE he became a member.

    Gumby

  • IslandWoman
  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Islandwoman and Gumby,

    I am having problem with the temporary computer I am using. After a short comment to Gumby I will come back and answer IS.

    Gumby said regarding Ray Franz:

    The Governing Body was already in existence well BEFORE he became a member.

    That is only true if you buy into the WT's version of history. The GB existed as a figure head only until 1975 when they succeeded in taking POWER OF CONTROL from the presidency, which Knorr and Fred Franz fought vigorously up to that date.

    slandwoman

    Let me reboot this computer and I will get back to you.

    Jst2laws

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Jst2laws,

    Thank you. Looking forward to your reply.

    IW

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Islandwoman,

    You quoted me as saying:

    he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place.

    This was in the context of a discussion regarding whether or not Ray Franz would ever have become president of the WT. I should have clarified that my use of “GB” representing the phrase Governing Body was in the context of how the Watchtower Society presently operates, opposed to how it operated for the first 100 years of it’s history. The change took place in about 1975 as a result of research done by Ray Franz for the publishing of the Aid to Bible Understanding. The issue that changed the Watchtower forever was not his belief in a governing body to rule the Christian congregation but in his findings regarding the bible use of the words elder, older man and overseer.

    R. Franz was in 1965 assigned to work on the the book Aid to Bible Understanding. In researching “elder” and “overseer” Ray was disturbed by his findings. The Watchtower had been closer to the scriptural administration of the congregations before 1932 when Judge Rutherford dissolved the elder arrangement which left only the Society appointed “company servant” to run the congregation. Taking his findings to his uncle, Fred, he was told:

    “Don’t try to understand the scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization …..Keep the Aid book pure”

    The information was so radical, when reviewed by Knorr, his response was:

    “Does this mean we have to change everything”?

    What R Franz had discovered was that there were “bodies of elders in the first century congregation, (and) that all elders served as overseers.”

    Ray F next presented his proposed Aid Book article to Fred Franz with the question ‘would this not cause problems to present this information to the brothers yet set aside this scriptural arrangement in favor of the way the JW congregations were presently organized. Fred thought there would be no problem.

    The Aid Book was published with the new information on the Biblical administration of the congregations using the elder arrangement. It did cause a problem and in about four years the Presiding Overseer arrangement was replaced by a body of elders.

    Now what does this have to do with my comment that

    he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place.

    If you haven’t guessed yet, give me a moment to type a bit more.

    Jst2laws

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Hi Jst2laws,

    Your comment about Ray Franz initiating the Governing Body mirrored Amazing's similar comment.

    You said:

    So do you think it is possible that by now Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place? is
    no, he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place. This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth.

    If Ray Franz did not agree with the Governing Body concept why would you say "he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place" without clarifying his position on the GB arrangement?

    You wrote:

    I should have clarified that my use of “GB” representing the phrase Governing Body was in the context of how the Watchtower Society presently operates, opposed to how it operated for the first 100 years of it’s history.

    This goes without saying. I was not addressing how the Society operated 100 years ago as opposed to today but what Ray Franz said, and what you said about him.

    You and Amazing said Ray Franz initiated the Governing Body arrangement. Please answer in a plain statement. Did he or didn't he? And if not what did you mean by your statement? I would appreciate forthright statements please.

    Thank you,

    IW

    I would like to add, that had I not started this additional thread it would have seemed to many here that Ray Franz initiated the Governing Body idea, since this is what was stated on the other thread. If this is not true then his "friends" came close to doing him a great disservice. imo

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    (continuation of clarification)

    Before I explain further what the new “Elder arrangement” had to do with changing the administration of the entire organization let me first say the hopeful anticipation of good coming from the “elder” arrangement in the 1970’s is far different from the reality we see today.

    The Presiding Overseer form of administration was a dictatorship and as dictators and kingships go, if the king is good the people are happy. If the king is bad the people suffer. Though there were some difficulties in the transition, most saw the change as a giant shift toward a kinder, loving theocratic society, especially with the shift in focus to shepherding the flock instead of beating them. I certainly do not need to expound on the reality we see thirty years later. As JT often says, now we have ‘janitors’ who think they are infallible counselors.

    My next comment you quoted was:

    This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth.

    Again this was in the context of whether R. Franz would have eventually become president. He was not manipulating political structure. He was “seeking Biblical truth” regarding the elder arrangement of the first century as to how the individual congregation was organized, not validation for a Governing Body to rule the congregations. However, the newly instituted ‘Elder Arrangement’ in the congregations resulted in the flow of change from bottom to top.

    In R Franz’s Crisis of Conscience he says (page 78)

    The information the book Aid to Bible Understanding presented about the elders doubtless began the process. Till then the congregations had been under the supervision of a single person, the “Congregation Overseer”. His replacement by a body of elders of necessity raised questions about the Branch Organizations where on man was the “overseer” for the whole country, mush as a bishop or archbishop”.

    Especially at Brooklyn Bethel we were waiting impatiently for the principles of the elder arrangement to effect change in the Presidency (dictatorship) that governed the world wide congregations.

    Finally in 1975 the impatience was manifest as discontent which reached the Presidents ears. In a nut shell, after a series of meetings with the President, Vice President, all WT officers and so called GB appointees, five committees were established, composed of these same men who were to take over administration of the WT organization. The president’s power over the Watchtower Society was revoked and the GB as we know it was born.

    As you demonstrated above with your quotes, Islandwoman, he found no scriptural foundation for a governing body. However, his reintroduction of the ‘elder arrangement’ in the congregations had this side effect on the world wide administration and was a welcome change in administration. Ray F says in his book (C of C page 108)

    My earnest hope was that the “leveling” and equalizing effect of the change would allow for greater moderation, a reduction of dogmatism, a greater concern for individuals and their individual circumstances and problems and perhaps some day, the elimination of the authoritarian approach that produced so many rules and assumed such great control over the personal lives of people.”

    WOW! I, while outside the intimate workings that caused this change, was just as hopeful. It appears I personally had more faith than Ray Franz that the organization was now on the right track. It took me twenty years more than Ray to give up that hope.

    I hope this has been clarifying. Please do not hesitate to question me further.

    Jst2laws

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Islandwoman,

    In response to your last comments, I said on the old thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/55940/819073/post.ashx#819073):

    he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place

    .

    I did not say he “initiated”. He did not initiate nor even conceive the Governing Body arrangement. As you can see above, the modern GB is a side affect of Ray Franz’s restoring to print the scriptural ‘elder arrangement’ which nearly 7 years later resulted in dissolution of the WT presidency. In this way “he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place.”

    As I have shown above he was “hopeful” that the Governing Body would be an improvement in contrast to the one man rule that had previously governed the individual congregations as well as the world wide organization. Later in his book, Crisis of Conscience, he admits that even the treatment he had suffered at the hands of the present GB probably would not have been allowed under Knorr’s presidency.

    Who can know the future. We just do what seems rational, reasonable, true and good and hope it will result in the same. Ray Franz was one of the first to suffer from the organizational changes that resulted from his Aid Book research. While many have suffered from this GB since its conception I have the highest respect for the candid and honest account that Ray Franz has given us while including his own mistakes, false hopes, and regrets.

    For any JWs peeking, give his first book a try. Those with the truth have nothing to hide nor fear.

    http://www.commentarypress.com

    Jst2laws

  • cat1759
    cat1759

    Jst2laws,

    Thank you for all the insight into this arrangement.

    Crisis of Conscience was an excellent eye opener.

    Cathy

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