confused as usual

joelbear

You Know placed the following quote in one of his responses.

'If now the godly man is being saved with difficulty, where will the sinner make a showing.' What's the answer? / You Know

What happened to salvation being a free gift and "Come and drink life's water free. Is it free or not? If there is a price to pay, even through some set of actions, then its not really free is it.
Is it difficult to be saved? I find this conundrum one of the most fascinating in the Bible.

dazed and confused hugs

Joel

outnfree

((((((JOELBEAR!))))))
Just happy to see you here!
I'll ponder this and try to reply later as I haven't much time right now.
hugs back at ya!
outnfree

You Know

Salvation is a free gift, but there are certain things a person must do to qualify for the free gift. Take the 3 Hebrews for example. They were faced with a life and death situation because of their integrity to God. There was really nothing they could do to save themselves, exept of course---compromise. But because they didn't compromise and worship the image, God then intervened and granted them salvation from certain death in the fiery furnace. But taking a stand like that in such a hostile environment is never easy. Satan's contention is that humans will do anything to save their own skins.

But, that's the way things will play out in the future. At some point this system will fail. Then there will come a holocaust of unimaginable violence, the likes of which the world has never experienced. Jesus said that men will simply wilt in fear. When that occurs, there will be no possibility of survival by ordinary human efforts. But, no doubt the demons will provide their own mirage of immediate salvation, which Jesus forewarned specifically, that it could even deceive the chosen ones if that were possible. Only those whose faith is complete will have what it takes to stand in the fire, so-to-speak, and call on the name of Jehovah and be guided through all the chaos. So, yes, the salvation that God will provide will be free, in that there is nothing that people can do to earn it; but, it will be a difficult thing to attain simply because of the severity of the situation. That's why even the hope of salvation is such a precious thing and shouldn't be thrown away so readily. / You Know

LDH

You know,

Why don't you try citing some examples in the New Testament, of JESUS' words where he required ANYONE to do ANYTHING.

As I recall, there was a robber crucified next to Jesus. He asked if he could be saved, Jesus indicated he would be in paradise. What the hell did the robber do to qualify for this gift? ASK?

Gimme a break. As usual, @$$holes trying to put qualifiers on Jesus' gift of salvation.

TheApostleAK

LDH: The robber told the other robber to shut the fuck up.

JAVA

At some point this system will fail.

Yeah, I remember that; which date was that going to happen--1914, 1918, 1919, 1925, 1975, before the end of 20th century? Rats, I wasn't going to waste cyber space on you--but I'm sure your WT God will forgive me. Oh, I keep forgetting--the WT God only forgives fools selling for the WT (but they're not sure either, are they).

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

You Know

***Why don't you try citing some examples in the New Testament, of JESUS' words where he required ANYONE to do
ANYTHING.***

That's not a problem. But my guess is, that because there are so many verses that one could cite, that you simply lack the spiritual wherewithall to get the sense of ANYTHING.

There are for instance many places where Jesus called on people to repent and follow him. The very fact that Jesus said that "he that endures to the end is the one that will be saved" indicates that in order for persons to receive salvation they had to expend themselves and endure whatever hardships come upon them. Jesus also warned his followers who were in line for life, that they should stay on the watch and not become weighed down with life's anxieties and daily affairs for fear that Jehovah's day would also ensnare them. Jesus also said to "exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door because many will seek to get in but will not be able." And of course Jesus warned his apostles to be on guard for the teachings of apostates who would try to persuade Christians to a different course than the one to which they were called. Futhermore, in Revelation, Jesus sent a message to one of his 7 congregations saying: "Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds FULLY PERFORMED before my God."

***What the hell did the robber do to qualify for this gift? ASK?

Yes, he asked to be remembered. But did you know that Jehovah says that he will not listen to the pleas of apostates when once the judgment upon this old system begins?

*** Gimme a break. As usual, @$$holes trying to put qualifiers on Jesus' gift of salvation.***

Give me a break, and stop putting up such a ridiculous pretense of truth. / You Know

JAVA

Hi joelbear,

What happened to salvation being a free gift and "Come and drink life's water free.

That's a real problem for cult religions because they can't exploit their followers. Look at the crap YK writes; it's right out of the WT. The worshipers of the WT wouldn't be out selling for the Tower if they believed salvation was free. Follow the power, control, and money--in the end you'll find sects like the Watchtower Society (and nut cases like YK).

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

joelbear

Actually,

I agree, in principle, with You Know. Where we differ is in what we believe that we must endure in doing.

You Know believes that one must endure in their relationship with an organization who claims to represent god.

I believe that one must endure in "the way" that one leads one's life
in a loving manner. We can be tempted to fall all this path by materialism, loyalty to manmade governements etc., all of which could move us from showing love to one another by engaging in politically motivated warfare or in accumulating more than our fair share of the earth's resources than we need for a good life, thus not showing love to our neighbor.

I do believe strongly that he who endures to the end in living a loving life is the one that will be saved.

hugs

Joel

You Know

***I do believe strongly that he who endures to the end in living a loving life is the one that will be saved***

The context of Jesus's remarks about enduring to the end had to do with the loss of love on the part of the greater number because of the increasing of lawlessness. Typically we think of lawlessness as having to do with crime and violence, but that is not necessarily the case. Lawlessness, particularly as used in the Scriptures, has to do with rebellion against God. For example, the apostate "man of lawlessness." Also where Jesus says to the hypocrites: "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness." His prophetic judgment is leveld against those who pretend to be his followers and not merely petty criminals or whatever. So, in the context about enduring to the end, Jesus prophesied about spiritual breakdown among God's people that we see developing today. That's apparent where Jesus said in verse 10: "Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many." Certainly the many false brothers and lurking faithless elders and others in the midst of the organization today, stands as an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' words. At 2nd Peter the 2nd chapter, apostate elders are specifically called false prophets. So the foretold stumbling, hatred, and betrayal that Jesus foretold is evidenced by the eruption of apostasy among God's people. Individuals like Ray Franz and others have obviously misled many. Going forward, we can only expect the apostasy to further spread like gangrene so that at the sudden outbreak of the tribulation, many will not be able to endure the shaking, having allowed their love and faith to be eroded.

The best is yet to come / You Know

confused as usual

--JAVA

--JAVA

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