JW's & alternative medicine

by slipnslidemaster 68 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Introspection

  The quote of the average life expectancy of MDs being 53 is probably from the tape "Dead Doctors Don't Lie", which was heavily used in multi-level marketing companies selling colloidal minerals. Unfortunately, while the fact a dead person cannot lie is self evident, apparently the guy on that tape (Joel Wallach I believe) does. There was an article in the Townsend Letter (an alternative medicine journal) which revealed that this guy was kicked out of the company he co-founded (I believe it is Mineral Toddy, or the co. that sells the product by that name) for twisting facts. See, not all alternative practitioners are fanatics, and those who are fanatics are also subject to peer review.

  Incidentally, this guy said he collected doctors' obituaries. While this may be revealing, it does open the door to a selective sample population. (yes, those of us who use alt med understand these things)
• 

  larc

  Comments on statistics'

  Since the subject of statistics has been mentioned, I wanted to discuss a couple of concepts.

  Double blind experiments: In research attempting to determine if a drug, herb, technique, or any other kind of intervention is effective it is necessary to conduct a bouble blind experiment. In such an experiment, neither the practicioner and/or researcher nor the ill person knows if they are getting the intervention or a placebo. Why? Because people are suggestible. Some will feel better because they believe in the intervention even if they are given something valueless. Also, some practioners will believe so much in their supposed cure that they can influence the outcome in a number of ways, even if the method is worthless.

  Sample size: The smaller the sample size the more likely that any reported improvement is due to chance variations over time or due to factors other than those being studied. Some times people get better for no known reason. Therefore, a sample of one, a testimonial, is not proof.

  These are the bare essentials. Other methological factors come into play, depending on the situation.

  Finally, the research should be submitted to a peer reviewed journal. The peers are individuals who can properly evaluate the quality of the research that has been conducted.

  Now, as a consumer, I may not have the expertise to evaluate the research. However, I can put more faith on the opinions from summaries of peer reviewed journal article prepared by people who can translate the research into the layman's terminology. (Dr. Dean Addel, on talk radio seems to do a good job of this. Also, a Dr. Murkin on the radio seems quite credible.) I certainly would not rely on a sales brocure, a testimonial, or the excitment of a newspaper article.

  Some have said: scientists don't know everything. True, but layman know even less.

  People lie with statistics: Then educate yourself on the subject as an informed consumer, or, find the best expert you can on the subject.

  If you have any questions, write them out on a twenty dollar bill and send them to me - one question per bill please.

  Someone asked if I was using the average life span as a straw man. No I wasn't. They asserted that this is not a good measure of health. True, it is not a perfect measure, but it is measured easily. Now, if the average life span was 35, I would expect that the folks were pretty unhealthy as group now wouldn,t you?. With longer lfe spans, I suppose you could find other measures of health. I suppose there are some peopld who live a long time, but are sick a lot. Nonetheless, I think as a general, overall index with very large sample sizes, that average life span is good enough. If you know of a better measure, let us all know.

  PS
  I don't believe that stat. about the average life span of doctors being 53.
• 

  Introspection

  Larc, I want to be clear that I was not implying that you intended to be misleading in citing the statistics of the average life span in China, in fact that is why I said "if I didn't know better", because I trust that isn't the case.

  However, it is as you said in the message above, it is a general, overall index. What this tells us is simply that in recent times, China as a nation has a somewhat lower life expectancy, (5 years I beleive?) which may be attributed to health. (were things like war and natural disasters taken into consideration?) As I stated previously, it is hardly a criteria for judging specific treatment modalities which are used traditionally. This is the leap in logic which I would take issue with, and if you see a fallacy in my reasoning here I would actually appreciated if you would point it out to me.

  I'd also like to say a few words about a functional, integral approach to health care. While I may not go to an MD with only standard medical training (but will see one who has done additional research in nutrition and such) for the common cold, if I was seriously injured in a car accident with massive blood loss, you bet I would want to go to the best ER in the area. I think even people who prefer non-allopathic medicine can see that emergency medicine is where it shines. So basically the way I look at it is not whether it works, but how it works or what it's good for. I understand the nature of the different treatment modalities, and not just the statistical numbers associated with them. Of course, I certainly acknowledge and in fact welcome further research in these disciplines to confirm their effectiveness, because my choices are based on reason, not blind faith.
• 

  larc

  Hi Introspection,

  It has been awhile since we have conversed.

  I do not disagree with your analysis at all. I think that once an overall measure is found, it always useful to look for other variables that can explain differences, and you suggested a few of these that should be factored in.

  I think you will see by my brief discussion of research methods that treatment modalities should be studied in a very detailed, thorough way. If an alternative treatment method shows promise, then, I think this kind of investigative research is very desirable. If the initial promise can be validated, then I think that the alternative method will become part of main stream medicine, just as it should.
• 

  Introspection

  Hi Larc,

  We're certainly in agreement over research of alternative therapies. However, I would just add that a little common sense often goes a long way. For example, if you have tight muscles you can no doubt benefit from therapeutic massage, or if you know how to stretch you can get atleast some relief for free. For more complex structural imbalances, I have found a skilled chiropractor or osteopath trained in manipulative treatment to be of great help.

  I think a certain level of subjective awareness is required, after all we go to see a doctor because we're not feeling good. While I can't distinguish what's going on in my body at a micro-cellular level, I do have a good idea of how and what I'm feeling. Of course, this also brings up the question of self-care. In principle, there is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you're doing, because after all you are the one that has to take care of yourself from day to day. In fact, though you may not have the specificity of lab test results, you can monitor yourself both mentally and physically over an extended period of time. Many nutritionally oriented physicians will have you keep a diet diary to see how you're doing in that regard, and in terms of getting some perspective of your mental health journaling can be a good idea. But of course, the other side of it is that there is a danger in self-medication. However I think this applies to both conventional over the counter medicine as well as herbal and nutritional supplements. While I can dwell on the point of one being less dangerous due to a generally lower level of toxicity, the real danger lies in swallowing something which you know little about.

  Maybe what it comes down to is taking responsibility for your own health. If you don't take care of yourself, it doesn't matter how good your doctor is or how effective the stuff you take is, because those are not strong enough to compensate for an unhealthy lifestyle.

  By the way, regarding Chinese medicine, the fact is there is research, though much of it is overseas and not really seen here in the states. The nature of things like acupuncture also makes it difficult to study, since the exact treatment is specific to the individual, and not uniform for a pre-defined pathology. I think the truth is probably pretty simple, and that is like any knowledge which might be considered wise, it is relatively rare. I'm sure there are still uneducated people in China who only practices primative folk medicine based on anecdotal evidence, (and perhaps a superstitious interpretation of it) simply because the systematically formulated traditional medicine isn't immediately available. Then again, people just tend to have bad habits too. One of my grandfathers was a well respected herbalist, his eldest son a MD, but he just ate too much red meat. That's pretty much universal everywhere you go, and what people really need to do there is change their behavior.
• 

  TR

  Red,

  When we visited him, he was 81 years old and looked to be in his 50s. He was still active both mentally and physically (in fact his favorite hobby was motocross, and he was planning to take his dirtbike out later that weekend).

  So, you admit that this superior old guy prefers MOTORCYCLES? Hmmmm? Not old nags? HMMMMMM!

  Seriously, do you know what's involved in motocross? I really doubt that an 81 year old fart actually rides motocross. Maybe trailbike riding, but not motocross.

  TR

  "Kults Suck"
• 

  larc

  Again, I can't disagree with anything you have said. If we all practiced everything that is common knowledge we would all be much better off. Things such as: eat nutritious food - no junk, excersise regularly, reduce the stress in your life, develope good friendships for support. (When I do a self assessment, I know that I could make some major improvements in some of these areas.)

  Well, it's June. I think I will start working on my New Year's resolutions.
• 

  slipnslidemaster

  Come on you newbies, don't be shy!! Throw your two cents in too!

  Slipnslidemaster: Doin' the humpty hump...just doin' the humpty hump...
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Well, duh, TR....the old guy lived just outside of Boston and had no room for a horse....otherwise, I'm sure his tastes would have been different. Motocross....trailbike riding.....same thing as far as I'm concerned! LOL Both of them involve lots of noise, noxious fumes, and WAY too much speed.