Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

by towerwatchman 205 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

    When judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective. Morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms. Using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish. We cannot do this by just looking at the physical features of the creatures. A human may ‘look’ more complex than a frog but how much more in quantitative terms cannot be determined by morphology.

    Biochemical level.

    On the biochemical level the difference between two proteins can be quantified exactly and the results can be used to measure similarity or difference between species. What is needed is a common thread that runs through living things.

    Cytochrome c is a small hemeprotein found loosely associated with the inner membrane of the mitochondrion. Cytochrome c is a highly water soluble protein, and is an essential component of the electron transport chain. Has a fundamental role in biological oxidation. Note found in a wide range of organisms from bacterial to mammals. It is about 100 amino acids long, has the same 3D configuration and possess an identical active site. What does vary between different organisms is the amino acid sequences. In Dayhoff’s Atlas of Protein Structure and Function there is a matrix with nearly 1089 entries showing the percentage sequence difference between thirty three different cytochromes taken from multiple species.

    We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds. The sequential divergence becomes greater as the taxonomic distance between organisms increases. But each identifiable subclass of sequences is isolated and distinct. Every sequence can be unambiguously assigned to a particular subclass. No sequence or group of can be designated as intermediate with respect to the other group. They are equally isolated from the members of other groups.

    If evolution is true then the existence of cytochrome C in ‘higher forms’ is the result from evolving from a common ancestor. We would expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage of difference as we move up the hierarchy of evolution. As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

    But that is not the case.

    Compare Rhodospirillum rubrum [bacteria] and Eucaryotic organisms. Percentage of difference.

    Horse 64%, Pigeon 64%, Tuna 65%, Silk worm 65%, Wheat 66%, Yeast 69%

    As far as bacterial cytochrome is concerned there is no intermediate between it and other eukaryotic cytochromes.

    Within the Animal kingdom.

    Compare phylum Arthropoda with phylum Vertebrata. Percentage of difference.

    Horse 27%, pigeon 25%, turtle 26%, carp 25%, lamprey 30%.

    All vertebrate types, [from cyclostomes and mammals], are uniformly distant from the insects.

    Compare lamprey [cyclostome] with jawed vertebrates. Percentage of difference.

    Carp [fish] 75%, frog [amphibian] 81%, chicken [bird] 78%, kangaroo [marsupial] 76%, and human [placental] 73%.

    No trace of traditional evolution at the molecular level. Man is as close to a lamprey as a fish.

    But let’s go further up the evolutionary trail and see if there are intermediates.

    Let’s compare a fish, with amphibian, reptile, or mammal.

    Comparing a carp, we have the following percentage of difference.

    Horse 13%, rabbit 13%, chicken 14%, turtle 13% and bullfrog 13%.

    Again an extraordinary mathematical exactness in the degree of isolation is apparent. Although cytochrome C sequences varied among terrestrial vertebrates, all of them are equal distance from a fish. No chronological sequence of evolution.

    Can the same degree of isolation be quantified isolating other proteins?

    Comparing hemoglobin between a snail and various vertebrates we find the following degree of difference.

    Lamprey 85%, carp 87%, frog 87%, chicken 85%, kangaroo 85%.

    On the evidence of protein sequences the lamprey cannot be classified as primitive with respect to other vertebrates, nor considered and intermediate between higher vertebrates and none vertebrates.

    If evolution were true, and creatures gradually evolved from one to another, there should be intermediate forms. Intermediate forms should be found in living creatures, in the fossil record, and at the bio chemical level. As to the fossil record none are found.

    But some now argue the reason we find none in the fossil record is because every creature is a transitional species. That also has been proven false, for if single cell organisms, evolved into multiple cell, into fish, into amphibians, into reptiles, mammals and finally man we should see progression in the percentage of difference in cytochrome C between the hierarchies , but we do not. As other evolutionary ‘disciplines’ interpret the evidence with ‘fuzzy’ parameters and ‘gray’ guidelines, being more subjective than objective, bio chemistry differs with mathematical precision and disproves evolution.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Source?

  • cofty
    cofty

    By the way cytochrome C is one of the best examples of evidence for common ancestry.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The mathematical equation to a Creationist .....

    Ignorance + intellectual dishonesty = Creationists

    There is in fact transitional fossils that have been found and discovered

    It has to honestly accepted in view of a few things to the reason why transitional fossils are not found in abundance.

    * Animals have to die in appropriate soil conditions for the skeletal remains to be persevered and fossilized over time. As its known the earth is in constant change in both environmental and geological conditions, so the chances of every living species to fossilize correctly is a physically impossibility.

    * the other thing to be realized is that's it extremely hard for humanity to day to discover any fossils at all by are own investigation, as its known all fossils aren't just strewn about laying on the top present soil of what we have today.

    Nevertheless in spite of these arduous variables we have discovered transitional fossils.

    This is a tentative partial list of transitional fossils (fossil remains of groups that exhibits both "primitive" and derived traits). The fossils are listed in series, showing the transition from one group to another, representing significant steps in the evolution of major features in various lineages. These changes often represent major changes in morphology and anatomy, related to mode of life, like the acquisition of feathered wings for an aerial lifestyle in birds, or limbs in the fish/tetrapod transition onto land.

    Almost all of the transitional forms in this list do not actually represent ancestors of any living group or other transitional forms. Darwin noted that transitional forms could be considered common ancestors, direct ancestors or collateral ancestors of living or extinct groups, but believed that finding actual common or direct ancestors linking different groups was unlikely.[1][2] Collateral ancestors are relatives like cousins in genealogies in which they are not in your direct line of descent but do share a common ancestor (in this case it is a grandparent). This kind of thinking can be extended to groups of life. For instance, the well-known Archaeopteryx is a transitional form between non-avian dinosaurs and birds, but it is not the most recent common ancestor of all birds nor is it a direct ancestor of any species of bird alive today. Rather, it is considered an extinct close evolutionary "cousin" to the direct ancestors. This may not always be the case, though, as some fossil species are proposed to be directly ancestral to others, like how Australopithecus anamensis is most likely to be ancestral to Australopithecus afarensis.[3]

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    I always thought it odd how some Christians find that it speaks well for their idea of Deity to say that God created everything separately and individually, as it is, without the flexibility to adapt and become more than what it was locked into being at the time of its being formed.

    To me I think it would speak more in the favor of God to design a universe in which life would develop via evolution, where life adapts, where it is flexible and free. That kind of life has a chance of going on and on, becoming stronger, smarter, ever more incapable of being snuffed out. That would more be like the life an eternal God would create. Such life can advance to a point of coming to understand God better as time goes on, whereas a static being could never hope to advance to really reflect the image of something as grand as an Almighty eternal Creator.

    Not that atheists need to recognize God, no sir. In fact, one might argue that since atheists too can clearly see that life evolved, this would be more the reason to give thought to the possibility that the God of Abraham might exist. But too many Christians say, "No. There is no logic to our God. Only magic." But I say: Why believe in a God of miracles when you can accept a God of reality?

    Alas, the Fundamentalist and literalist Christian who forces God into an idol of their own making, incapable of being intelligent and creative enough to create a universe where life is as spontaneous within as it is in God. Their "God" can't create things by evolution. No wonder intelligent, logic, moral people can't wrap their minds around such a "God."

    Their "God" has to fit within defined parameters like those made for a golden calf, with hooves that must go there, horns that must go on top over there, and a tail at its end to keep flies from going into its anus. A "God" like that has limits. And they are so proud of this "God" of theirs: "'God' is this, and 'God' is that, and we have all the truth and know all about 'God,' and 'God' must fit the parameters of our doctrine."

    Not much of a god if it has to fit according to what you teach, if you ask me.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Religiots can't reason, their "proof" of god is nothing of the sort. This is good, esp. relevant from 8:30 on and how things are "designed" or not:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUUpvrP-gzQ

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Cofty

    By the way cytochrome C is one of the best examples of evidence for common ancestry.

    Why? Because we have it? How about addressing the fact that as we go up the evolutionary hierarchy we should expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage. As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

    But we don’t. Why? This does not prove common ancestry at all. What it proves is that the creatures we have now all appeared on the fossil record at the same time. It disproves common ancestry, and proves common designer.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To Finklestien

    There is in fact transitional fossils that have been found and discovered
    It has to honestly accepted in view of a few things to the reason why transitional fossils are not found in abundance.
    * Animals have to die in appropriate soil conditions for the skeletal remains to be persevered and fossilized over time. As its known the earth is in constant change in both environmental and geological conditions, so the chances of every living species to fossilize correctly is a physically impossibility.

    Notice how you pick and choose what you want to address. Never the main topic but some obscure, gray area. Bottom line, there are no transitional fossils. Been waiting for one all my life. What we have is opinion, and a bunch of excuses. Again a applaud all evolutionist. For it takes more faith to believe all this fantasy about prebiotic soup, fish turning into lizards, and so forth till man, all lead by a dumb and blind processes, I could never have enough faith to be an evolutionist.

  • towerwatchman
    towerwatchman

    To David_Jay

    To me I think it would speak more in the favor of God to design a universe in which life would develop via evolution, where life adapts, where it is flexible and free. That kind of life has a chance of going on and on, becoming stronger, smarter, ever more incapable of being snuffed out. That would more be like the life an eternal God would create. Such life can advance to a point of coming to understand God better as time goes on, whereas a static being could never hope to advance to really reflect the image of something as grand as an Almighty eternal Creator.

    i believe in following the evidence till where it leads us. Following the evidence, this disproves common ancestry.l. What it proves is that the creatures we have now all appeared on the fossil record at the same time. It disproves common ancestry, and proves common designer.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    I posted this before on another thread. I think it's appropriate here.

    Science and Earth History: The Evolution/Creation Controversy

    Product Details

    This book is comprehensive in its treatment of Creationism/Intelligent Design. 550 oversized, fine print pages covering every argument Creationists have brought up. Well worth the price.

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