RAPE & GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by JT 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AGuest

  The greatest of love and peace to you, too!

  Sigh! I am not sure how to respond to you: to be thorough, it would require much more "detail" than I can give... than I want to give. But I will try, because to some degree I know this little girl. She is not all that unique. I won't go into it - no need and no benefit. But...

  I spent long years of my life in pain. Deep emotional pain.

  I, too, spent the former part of my life in this way: pain. Pain caused... by others... over which I had NO control. Was it deep? You betcha! WAY too deep for me to go into here. Would I change any of it? In TRUTH? No. None of it. Why? Because I am what I am TODAY... because of what I experienced THEN. And what I am today, is, by my standards... quite okay. I also would not change it because I would have no "basis" with which to sympathize/ empathize with others. Had my life not been as it had, I would hear such stories and THINK I understood... but in truth, would not completely. And I would also not change it because I have learned that I am NOT the exception to the "norm"... me and my former pain... but the RULE of what is "normal" in this world. Trust me, there are WAY more of "us"... those who grew up WITH pain... than "them"... those who grew up without it.

  I prayed for God to help me but he never came.

  I cannot say this. What I CAN say is that every time I thought I could NOT bear whatever it was one more time... I was given an "out". Always. Every time. Sometimes it was a resolve; sometimes it was an escape. Did I always take it? Nope. But, that was on me, not God. Again, then, I have no regrets. Truly.

  I prayed for my parents to change.

  I'm sorry, I can't comment here, except to say that once I became an adult woman, I began to understand what I didn't as a child: that my parents did the best THEY understood and knew how to do... good or bad... based on what THEY had undergone and experienced. Once I learned about THEIR childhoods... well, it only became a matter of "well, duh!" And it was perpetuated LONG before them. But... I did not ever see where God was to blame. My parents and/or their environment, yes; their parents and/or their environment, uh-huh... and so on and so on... but not God.

  I prayed for strength.

  As did I. And I have to say that in all TRUTH... God answered me on that one. I WAS strong; that was how I got through it. And I AM strong - and thus, me and my life is NOT defined BY it. Rather, I... define... my... life.

  And I prayed that one day some people would come and take me away saying there was a mix-up at the hospital and I belonged to them and they loved me.

  What child doesn't... no matter WHAT their family/home life is like? Sigh! We ALL think we have it the worst. As I said, I will not go into the details - I do not wish you to publicly "know" me that "well." It is mine... and for me to keep. However, I will tell you that for all the days I wished my life to change... I never wanted the life of the kids in Africa or Chile or Peru or Bangladesh or Vietnam, either. Somewhere... SOMEONE'S life... was worse than mine. Always. And if they could endure THEIR life... I could... and did... endure mine.

  Praying never worked.

  And I cannot say this. For me... praying was the ONLY thing that worked! Begging and pleading with those CAUSING the harm to cease? Now, that... did not work.

  At 10 I was going to church by myself.

  I started at six; the Sunday school bus would come by and pick me up. And I HAD to be ready, so that I would sometimes get myself ready... which meant mismatched shoes, dirty socks, wrinkled skirt, etc. Did I LIKE Sunday school? Nope. Hated it. Always thought I was being lied to and patronized. But... I thought that that's where God was... so I had to be there, too.

  Maybe if I went to church God would listen to my prayers.

  I didn't pray to God in church (which is why, when the WTBTS taught me not to say the national anthem, I didn't have a problem being the only with my eyes not closed and my heart crossed - I was always "rebellious" - what can I say?). And I didn't think that He would think me "good" for going. I never considered that He thought me "bad". Stupid, maybe, from time to time, for not listening... and the choices I sometimes made... but not "bad". I went because I thought it was the closest place to Him. I prayed... in my bed. Alone. A lot.

  I begged my mother for a few pennies to put in the plate as it was passed around. Maybe God would listen if I paid him. That didn’t work either.

  I never thought the money was for God. I always thought it was for the man who stood up front, all dressed up in some way... and talked about God. When what he said made sense... I listened. When what he said didn't... I dismissed it as HIS ignorance. And there were many of these men.

  I remember sitting there, in the pew, my Sunday clothes on, feet not touching the floor, wondering why God thought I was so bad that He wouldn’t help a little girl.

  I remember thinking, "What do you want ME to do?" because I KNEW He wanted me to do SOMETHING. Some of it took me a LONG time to figure out... and that was: 1. To NOT worry about what others did or did not do... 2. But to love them in spite of it... 3. And concern myself only with what I did or did not do... 4. And to NOT worry about whether others did or did not love me... 5. But to love them in spite of it... 6. And love MYSELF... by means of... 7. Knowing that He indeed loved me... KNOWING it... 7. In spite of MY reasons for thinking He might not... based primarily on that which others tried to get me to believe... 8. And to tell any who ask... that He loves them, too... 9. In SPITE of their reasons for thinking that He doesn't... 10. Or the reasons that others have given them for thinking so. I knew numbers 2 and 5 at a very early age... which is what got me through the "crap". I did not let my love "cool off." I COULDN'T. Because it was all that I had. But... to stop worrying about whether they loved me... was harder... and KNOWING that God loved me... was even harder... so that loving MYSELF... was the most difficult. Because everyone... from parent to the WTBTS tried to tell me different: that I was supposed to love everyone BUT myself! But, my Father has taught me, through Christ, that UNLESS I love myself... I CANNOT love others. And UNLESS I know I am loved by Him... I cannot... love myself. How did I eventually KNOW I was loved by God? I HEARD it... and I put faith in what I heard.

  I listened intently as the words of Jesus were spoken, "Let the little children come to me." Well I was there but I guess he never saw me.

  For me, it was different: I knew He saw me; especially, when I was "stupid". I just could not... see HIM. That, too, has changed.

  Maybe God knew what I did with daddy and he was punishing me.

  Yes, God knew... but He wasn't punishing this child. The next line tells us who was doing that:

  Daddy said what I did was bad and if the police found out I would go to reform school.

  But... we can't hold "Daddy" accountable... can we... cause he was only an "imperfect" man "made" by GOD (which is completely untrue, but)... so it is really GOD who is to blame, yes?

  And have nothing to eat except bread and water, if I was lucky. Reform schools didn’t like little girls who did the things I did.

  Geez, what a "dad", eh? The man who was ENTRUSTED with the care of this child put these things in her head! NOT God... but... it's God who we should blame, right? It certainly seems to be God whom the "child" is blaming. But, I will tell you the TRUTH: the "child"... NEVER blamed God... but rather, blamed herself. Read it. And she DID such blame... because of what her FATHER (and others - but NOT God) told her. Read it. It is now the "adult"... who blames God... as a result of not having anyone else on whom to place such blame. Because, neither the father... nor the false "christs"... ever told her that THEY... can BE blamed... did they? Of course not! What TRUE "criminal" owns up to his/her responsibility for the act?

  Maybe God didn’t either. I was a sinner. Pure and simple. They read it out right there in the church. Words from the Bible saying I was a sinner. God knew what happened with daddy. And it was a sin. And I was going to burn in hell for it.

  The people ENTRUSTED with "releasing" this child... did NOT do what they were obligated to do: tell her... the TRUTH... that it was DADDY who was to blame... and NOT her... and not God. True, that may not have occurred because she didn't tell them specifically, but drew her conclusions from what she heard them reading. But what is the TRUTH? Where in the Bible... no, where in the LAW... does it say that a little girl who is raped by her father is guilty of "sin"? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? Nowhere. Yet, no one told her this, but left her to her own young mind's conclusion... which conclusion carried forth into her adulthood. So much so that when NOW someone says, "You have been MISLED; God is NOT to blame... but Daddy is"... it cannot be "heard". And whose RESPONSIBILITY was it to tell her? The very one who was committing the "crime" against her. But... he's not responsible, is he, for his crime OR for not telling her the truth. Right?

  But I’m only 10 and I can’t make daddy stop.

  No, she couldn't. But I ask you all: is God the ONLY one who could make Daddy stop? Can't DADDY make Daddy stop? Or Mommy?

  I don’t like it and I try to hide but he always finds me. I say "No daddy," but he doesn’t listen either.

  Bad GOD... Daddy doesn't listen.

  Guess God is like daddy and doesn’t listen to little kids.

  I wonder how we will all feel when we find out just how much crying God has done... NOT over what He has or hasn't done to/for us... but what WE have done... or not done... to/for one another. If YOUR heart is bursting for the little kids in Africa who have lost their parents to AIDS... if YOUR heart is bursting over the pregnant mother and child who were killed... if YOUR heart is bursting over this little girl and her plight at the hands of her father, as well as the multitude of little boys who have been molested for CENTURIES by men claiming to represent God... Why do "we" ASSUME, then,... that God's heart is not bursting as well? Because He hasn't done/didn't do anything? But what have "we" done? What are "we" DOING? Shouldn't HE, then, be just as DISGUSTED... with US? But I know... I know... there are still those among "us"... who just won't get the hypocrisy of it. I bid you peace anyway. A slave of Christ, SJ
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Hello to everyone,

  AGuest, "bttt" means "back-to-the-top" (in other words, when someone posts "bttt", they are posting in order to bring the Thread back up to the top of the "Active Threads" list). It took me quite a while to figure out what that meant too.

  I still haven't had much free time to do a lot of research into the Rape Laws in the Mosaic Law.

  However, here are a few interesting facts:

  1: As "Waiting" mentioned, women were only required to scream IF they were next to people who COULD rescue her. In other words, IF there was a person nearby who WOULD have heard the woman scream and COULD have rescued her, and the woman DID NOT scream for help, then she would have been found guilty (if two eye-witnesses turn her in).

  2: There had to be at least TWO EYE-WITNESSES that saw the man and woman having sex (the rape act), and then those two eye-witnesses would have to accuse the woman of having CONSENTUAL SEX (adultery), and then they would have to bring it before the judges.

  3: If a woman was raped and NO ONE was around that could rescue her, then there was a "ONE-WITNESS LAW" -- the rapist was to be put to DEATH at the mouth of ONE WITNESS -- THE VICTIM!

  4: There was a Law against incest in the Mosaic Law (death penalty), and there were also Laws against fornication (pay a fine) and adultery (death penalty) and homosexuality (death penalty) and bestiality (death penalty).

  5: From my research, I am pretty sure that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is NOT talking about RAPE -- I believe that those two Verses are talking about CONSENTUAL SEX.

  Deuteronomy 22:28-29: If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

  The following Verses further show that it is talking about consentual sex:

  Exodus 22:16-17: "If a man entices a virgin who isn't pledged to be married, and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

  For more information that shows that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is talking about consentual sex, go here: http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm

  Also, the Bible clearly shows that under the Mosaic Law, woman did indeed have a say in which man they would marry:

  Numbers 36:6: This is the thing which Yahweh does command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them be married to whom they think best; only into the family of the tribe of their father shall they be married.

  Also, be sure to check out the following VERY GOOD information taken from http://www.berith.org/essays/martin_rape/09.html :

  Another law in the same context discusses what Martin calls “the raped of a betrothed virgin in a city.” Martin has almost entirely misunderstood the passage. First, the passage is not referring to rape simply, but distinguishing rape from adultery. In a case in which a woman has cried out for help, the judges may assume it was rape and the offender is put to death. But in a case in which the woman did not cry out, it is assumed that it was not rape at all, but consensual sexual relations. In that case, it is adultery. The penalty is death for both offenders, if the victim so decides (It appears that in Biblical law the victim has the right to decide whether or not the death penalty should be executed on the offenders, but that is another topic. I will not get into it here).

  Are there cases in which a woman cannot cry out? No doubt there may be. What about those cases? Is the woman guilty of adultery anyway? Not at all. It must be remembered that the laws of the Bible are not modern statutes that criminal lawyers can play games with. The law of Moses functioned more as instruction in righteousness and wisdom that provided ethical standards for the civil law of Israel than as a civil law itself. Judges, moreover, had far more discretion in applying the law than do judges in the modern world. What was clearly required was careful investigation and a just decision. It would not at all have been legally difficult for a judge in ancient Israel to decide that a rape had occurred, even though the victim had not cried out. He would only need good reasons for making the judgment, such as, for example, bruises on the victim’s face indicating that the man who violated her prevented her from screaming out, or evidence that he placed a knife at her throat, threatening more serious violence if she did cry out. Given the village structure of ancient Israel, the judges’ knowledge of the young woman and her family would often be sufficient basis for accepting her testimony -- not to mention that in most cases they would also know the perpetrator of the crime.

  In the rather similar case of the woman in the open country, her testimony alone is apparently adequate to determine that the man has raped her. The language is significantly different, verse 25 speaking specifically of “forcing her,” language not found in the previous section dealing with the city. Here, in other words, Moses is not trying to distinguish between rape and adultery. Rape is assumed to be the case. No doubt proof of some sort would still be needed, since the importance of investigating a crime and obtaining adequate proof, one of the hallmarks of modern justice, is a repeated theme of the law of Moses. But the passage specifically makes provision for the woman’s situation. She does not have to offer proof of her innocence, like she does in the city. Moreover, the law indicates that the woman who is a victim of rape is like the man who is a victim of murder. She is encouraged not to feel guilty. There is no fault on her part. Certainly this has implications for her inward healing from the experience.

  It is true, as Martin says, that the Bible does not specifically mention the “psychological harm” done to the victim. However, this is not only true in the case of rape, it is true in the case of every other crime that the Bible deals with. This is not to conclude that God doesn’t care about the “psychological harm” done to victims. Martin himself notes that in an historical passage outside the law, the story of Amnon’s rape of Tamar, the psychological pain of the victim is described. In historical passages, in the Psalms, and in the books of the prophets, there is ample material addressing the suffering and pain of all sorts of people. In other words, the Bible does not deal with psychological pain in the law, but in a different and more appropriate context.

  What we have seen, then, is that Martin has not adequately understood either the specific laws that he cites or the larger context of Biblical law. The interpretations he suggests involve gross neglect of the immediate passage in some cases and basic ignorance about the teaching of the law in general. Even more, Martin exhibits a profound and blinding prejudice. Ancient Israel’s law is not what Martin makes it out to be. On the contrary, Biblical law is sensitive not only to the situation of the raped woman -- publicly pronouncing her to be as innocent a victim as one who has been murdered -- but also to the great difference between date rape and violent rape. In the larger context of loving all our brethren and giving special care to the weak, the laws about rape are no less enlightened than the laws of any land in our day.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, some more comments:

  1: The Bible DOES NOT say what would happen if the victim could not scream because she was shocked or terrified.

  2: The Bible DOES NOT say what would happen if the victim could not scream because the rapist threatened her with a weapon.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Francois said:

  (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) "I believe that, basically, since Adam and Eve's sin, God has decided to let humans see if they can rule themselves, because that is what Adam and Eve wanted to do -- they wanted to choose for themselves what "good" and "bad" was." (End of Quote)

  I have seen some extraordinary examples of superior, super-human reasoning in my life, but this certainly isn't one of them. The very idea that because in the dim and distant past, the so-called "original pair" of human beings screwed up somehow, that God has sentenced the entire human race to get along without his help is perhaps the most brain-dead, absurd, stupid and generally drooling from the mouth piece of crap pretending to be reasoning I've ever seen.

  Your idea of the nature and character of God is somewhere in the tenth basement parking deck, the one just above the sewer. The very idea of original sin is an affront to the Living God and should be to each and every one of his children, as should be the atonement doctrine.

  In fact, the above "reasoning" is so lacking in anything resembling consistency with the ideals of the creator it deserves no more comment from me. And it's author needs to have his/her head examined next time s/he passes by a vegetable stand.

  I'm sorry you feel that way.

  If I'm not mistaken, in previous posts, you have claimed that Jesus is your "Master", correct?

  Well, your Jesus is obviously NOT the same Jesus of the Bible!

  John 10:17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again.
  John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This command I have received from My Father."

  John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  I challenge anyone (including JT, Francois, AlanF, Farkel, Gumby, ANYONE) to come up with a BETTER "Rape Law" (without having DNA, blood samples, fingerprints, modern evidence etc.) than the Mosaic Law as I posted above.

  I also challenge ANYONE to actually analytically demonstrate how that Mosaic Rape Law is "cruel" or "unfair".

  Here are a couple more Verses from Deuteronomy to consider:

  Deuteronomy 17:4: and it be told you, and you have heard of it, then shall you inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is done in Israel,

  Deuteronomy 13:14: then shall you inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is done in the midst of you,

  Deuteronomy 19:16-21: If an unrighteous witness rise up against any man to testify against him of wrong-doing, then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who shall be in those days; and the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness is a false witness, and has testified falsely against his brother; then shall you do to him, as he had thought to do to his brother: so shall you put away the evil from the midst of you. Those who remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil in the midst of you. Your eyes shall not pity; life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

  Deuteronomy 1:17: You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike; you shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.

  Deuteronomy 17:8-11: If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within your gates; then shall you arise, and go up to the place which Yahweh your God shall choose; and you shall come to the priests the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days: and you shall inquire; and they shall show you the sentence of judgment. You shall do according to the tenor of the sentence which they shall show you from that place which Yahweh shall choose; and you shall observe to do according to all that they shall teach you: according to the tenor of the Law which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand, nor to the left.

  And here's a Verse from John:

  John 7:51: Does our Law judge a man before it hears from him first, and knows what he is doing?"
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  rocketman

  God hasn't intervened in much of anything. I guess either one accepts 'waiting till his due time' or that he doesn't care or doesn't exist. Or some other explanation.