No 'Tight Pants' policy is now official - classed as 'disturbing'

by wizzstick 362 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    You imply that I am being obsessive - I don't think Simon is implying this, maybe that you're being unrealistic instead.

    LUHE asks what I would want done with it; how about leave people alone? - again, not realistic. Wouldn't it be lovely if the WT just left people alone? Or, of its own volition, dispensed of the shunning doctrine? Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid.

    Realistically, it seems the WT has got a lot stricter re. effeminate men. This could well have an affect of waking up more JWs than would otherwise be the case. If the WT relaxes this in future, it's likely that fewer JWs will wake up - instead wasting their lives as JWs. These are the realistic scenarios, as far as I can see.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    TakeOffTheCrown

    Homosexuality is a sin. Governments may declare the practice of homosexuality legal. But is it legal (not a sin) in God's eyes? He says not. Those who do such things, are you hoping that God will remember you when you die and resurrect you?

    Not to go off topic but TOTC did you know that homosexuality is just an genetic biological abnormality, like people who are born blind, mentally handy capped and so on ?

    Did the ancient Hebrews who proclaimed that it was a grievous sin know that, reflectively could they have possibly have known that ? How could something of which you were born with be contrived as a sin ?

    Thats like calling all blind people sinners.

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99

    This directive is unlikely to be used to start a witch hunt of gays still in living in the closet within the organisation. It makes no difference to the majority of people studying since the chances of them being openly gay and still wanting to join the Witnesses is virtually nil.

    For those people, particularly born-ins, who have contented with trying to square their natural feelings with their programming that homosexuality is a sin and not to be practised there are a few scenarios:

    1 - they acknowledge their feelings, come out as gay and leave the organisation

    2 - they acknowledge their feelings but stick the organisation and simply try to squash their natural tendencies

    3 - they kid themselves and try to live as a heterosexual witness

    Basically, the cream either rises to the top and leaves or is suppressed by the individual.

    I would suspect that it would only be the extreme case where someone who believes themselves to be gay stays in the organisation and fights against whatever intolerance is shown as a result of this directive.

    However, I still believe there is the question of how this is implemented. Although the notes suggest that counsel and the sanction on ministry would be provided only to one continually reflecting the extremes of the spirit of the world, we all know this type of poorly qualified direction is regularly interpreted in ways that go beyond the spirit and intent of the original instruction.

    Given it's inference to not just clothing but also mannerisms that could be construed as crossing the gender divide, I would not be surprised if we start to hear of cases where elders start wading into situations with their size tens, dragging their cultural knuckles on the floor behind them.

    I think Simon is correct to point out that this probably makes zero material difference to the genuine homosexual but the collateral damage is not going to be there. It's going to be in the young ones who like to be well groomed and enjoy expressing themselves sartorially. It's going to be on those that like to be a little different. It's going to be amongst those that are in congregations where one or two elders rule the roost and have no liberally minded foils (and they do exist) to temper the control they wish to exercise.

    In my opinion, this instruction does represent a resurgence of the sort of top down, prescriptive, rule based, unqualified, high control thinking and approach that typified times past.

    Aside from the ministry sanction, maybe little is actually that different to previous commentaries on clothing etc. however there is something more insidious about the way this is presented that may be more visible to the average joe witness, especially if they are the more professional and culturally aware type that are out there.

    To that end I would hope that the elders do act on this instruction and do it in a way that is ill conceived. That way, there is a chance that it may be catalyst for some to wake up.

  • Simon
    Simon
    it seems your take is that we should not be surprised, ho hum, just a fundy nuthouse.

    So you are surprised that a conservative christian group condemns homosexuals and isn't welcoming of them?

    even insiders were shocked at the extreme nature of the material.

    I think your use of the word extreme is a little extreme. They have simply updated their rules to the latest trends. In 10 years time they will be talking about something else (super long collars make a comeback - you heard it here first).

    Maybe, but in the meantime those who aren't gay, just have 'mannerisms' that are objectionable to elders, are targeted. I wish they would just leave them alone. If men and women with 'gender blurring' characteristics are going to the hall, how about just leave them alone?

    So they issue is about people who are not actually gay, who just give the appearance of being gay?

    It would be great if the WTS was a kind and tolerant religion ... But that's what I'm saying - they are not and never have been (esp towards gays) which is why I don't see this as the monumental change that you obviously do.

    They obviously want to be there, is that not enough for elders or do they need to drive off everyone who is not exactly like them? If they want to leave, they will; if they want to stay, nothing we say will make any difference.

    Not everyone who is there wants to be there, they just don't realize yet that leaving is an option.

    The choice to stay or leave is theirs as you say ... so what is the problem?

    Like everyone else in the KH they are given choices to comply or not over a myriad and one things. This is just the latest in a long line of "appearance" related mandates.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    did you know that homosexuality is just an genetic biological abnormality

    No, it's a naturally-occurring biological variation that occurs infrequently. It's uncommon, but not abnormal.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Will the WTBTS now make the argument that wearing "gay looking" clothes is a homosexual practice?

    DD

  • Simon
    Simon
    this probably makes zero material difference to the genuine homosexual but the collateral damage is not going to be there. It's going to be in the young ones who like to be well groomed and enjoy expressing themselves sartorially. It's going to be on those that like to be a little different.

    Yes, and in this scenario there is no real change - the society has always been against the latest fashion and trends or youths. All that has changed is that it's no longer mini-skirts or skirts with slits in them or long hair or beards ... now it's metro-sexual style which is today's fashion (apparently, I buy clothes from Costco ... what do I know!).

    It's going to be amongst those that are in congregations where one or two elders rule the roost and have no liberally minded foils (and they do exist) to temper the control they wish to exercise.

    Again, local elders who enjoy and wield their power unjustly are nothing new and there is nothing in these instructions that encourages, promotes or excuses that behaviour, exactly the opposite - they are promoting the notion of patient counsel and private sanctions for people who stubbornly refuse to make the requested changes.

    As with anything, if someone really wants to keep their style rather than their faith they can leave. Otherwise, like so many before them, they change to keep inline with the WTS standards on dress, grooming and behaviour.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Will the WTBTS now make the argument that wearing "gay looking" clothes is a homosexual practice?

    I think the argument they are making is that gay looking clothing is allowing the influence of homosexuals to permeate the congregation. The "spirit of the world" and all that.

    I'm not sure wearing a flowery shirt really classifies you as actually gay.

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Biologically speaking i would suggiest its abnormal. Sexuality is for the purpose of procreation. Homosexuality precludes that. From a biological pov it is therefore abnormal. Its not a useful genetic quality as it precludes the passing of genes.

    That said, in creatures on the level of humans, sexuality is more than simple procreation. Its common and therefore not "abnormal" or a problem. Its a matter of base line doscussion i suppose and what specific angle you are addressing.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Watch out you Metrosexual dressing teenagers cause there's an elder out there who is not going to like what's your choice of clothing attire. Some old fat obese goat of an elder is going to pull you into the back room and insinuate you cant wear what your thinking of wearing out in service.

    Dressing like could possibly attract gay men into the organization filling are Kingdom Halls full with people who we typically don't respect and objectively abhor.

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