"How Long Would Jesus' Reign Be?"

by BoogerMan 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman


    A day is like a thousand years to God and vice versa. So, if 24 hours is like a thousand years to God but to us it is a short period of time. And if a thousand years is like 24 hours to God but to us that is a very long period of time what did Peter mean in the context of when exactly God takes action, that is to say “the last days” which although Peter under inspiration was referring to thousands of years in the future when Jesus would return in kingdom power, Peter no doubt personally concluded in error that he was referring to that contemporary period of time in his inspired letter that he was writing to his fellow Christians back then.

    God did take action back then when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem as Jesus foretold. The ridiculers that didn’t flee from Judea as Jesus warned Christians to were sadly decimated by Titus whereas Christians that exercised clear thinking and ran to the hills averted God’s wrath on the Jewish nation. The letter was a prophetic warning back then and also applies to the future when the Christ actually returns when nobody expects except those that have identified the last days as the letter infers.

    Obviously, John and the congregations in Revelation were still waiting for Jesus to return in the manner described in the Bible with the grand and final fulfillment and blessings of Bible prophecy which did not happen immediately after Titus razed Jerusalem. Obviously John waited and died but was convinced with the proof of visions and miracles that it would surely happen then. But other Christians lost faith while others died convinced —same as JW too also are convinced.

    But getting back to the application of the scripture you cited that a thousand years or a 24 hourday is all the same to God ( interpreting and expanding on the meaning of Ps 90:4 )referring to slowness Christians were apparently experiencing, the focus shifts from God being slow implying Christian doubt: “Why is it taking God so long?”” It is about time the Scripture should be fulfilled but nothing is happening.” Peter shifts to how God feels: Although God is not affected by time, he experiences patience—imagine that. That is why it is taking so long. God is waiting for everybody to repent.

    When Jesus died and paid the ransom, God could have taken action back then but he didn’t ( compare Alan F. Treatise and prior to that “Knowledge Book” on the Ransom subject ) because there are other factors, Satan’s removal from power and allowing enough time to give everybody an opportunity to repent. Human suffering continues.

    Words like short and soon and quickly used prophetically in the Bible do not refer to actual length of time.

  • Vidqun

    Fisherman, this is how I see and experience it. I don't see it as time but rather different levels of time. God created everything, so time as we know it would have started then. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: "He changes times and seasons, deposing some kings and establishing others. He gives wisdom to the wise; he imparts knowledge to those with understanding" (Dan. 2:21 NET). God can change times and seasons at will because He created them.

    Time for us is absolute. That's all we know. For God it's relative, judged or measured by comparing it to different timelines and eternity. To understand His view of time one would need "clear thinking," as you say and help from His Spirit and Word. You mentioned the "creative" days. For us it would be a long time. For God six days have passed. We find ourselves in the seventh day, which is still ongoing. Lots must still happen. In that sense, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He will finalize what God has started (Gen. 2:3; Matt. 12:8; cf. Hebr. 3:11, 18; 4:1-11).

    You mentioned Peter and God's patience. This made me think of Habakkuk. Also he could not understand God's patience until God reassured him: "Then Yahweh answered me and said, “Write the vision and make it plain on the tablet so that ⌊it might be read quickly⌋. a For there is yet a vision for the appointed time; it will give witness to the end, and it will not lie. If it tarries, wait for it, for it will surely come and not delay."

    a. Literally “it might run reading upon it” [W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Hab 2:2–3.]

  • Fisherman

    so time as we know it would have started then.

    Time is part of God, maybe.

    I understand time as the length between 2 events or change. Time existed with God before the universe. There was a point in time when only the King of Eternity existed. But as the scripture pointed out God changes time and seasons inside the universe so time inside the universe doesn’t govern God but God governs time according to one interpretation of the verse, making time proscriptive whereas God is descriptive defined by his fundamental qualities and other descriptions too —maybe one of those descriptions is time too.

    If it makes any sense God’s existence by himself is not idle. He is alive and active and there is a length of time between one aspect of his existence compared to another. So, I suppose it is possible to measure length of time in heaven using a physical standard counting back in time: a google to the google power years from the time God created Jesus to the time God felt something all by himself or between two other events inside God’s mind or person. As someone brilliantly posted, God experiences the same time we do differently.

    No matter how you cut it though, 108 years of Satan after 1914 is not a short period of time if people are expecting change compared to one’s lifetime.

  • BoogerMan

    aqwsed12345 - "Satan lost his power with Jesus' redemption, and through grace Christians truly became "kings and priests."

    Where did you get the phrase "kings and priests" from? There's only one king.

    Certainly not from a Greek concordance. How many kings are needed at any one time?

    The NWT plagiarised the false term, because it suited their dogma.

  • Vidqun

    BoogerMan, this is where he got it from. It is indeed found in the Greek MSS. Jesus told his disciples they will sit on thrones. Note Peter talks of a "royal priesthood." You can check it in your translation(s) of the Bible.

    28 Jesus said to them, Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

    9 But YOU are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Pet. 2:9)

    21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Rev. 3:21)

    9 And they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth. (Rev. 5:9-10)

    6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NW) [Cursive script added.]

  • slimboyfat

    BoogerMan I think you’re correct if you’re saying that the teaching about Jesus beginning his reign in 1914 but the 1000 years not starting in 1914 is confusing. At least I found it confusing as a JW.

    Nevertheless that is what they teach. So to press the point that if they did teach the 1000 years started in 1914 then the clock would be running on that time seems beside the point - because they don’t teach that.

  • ThomasMore

    Given that WTC originally taught that the creative days were 7,000 yrs long each (see the Table of the Books of the Bible in the old green version published in the 1960's), I have zero confidence to explain matters related to timing of the creation, the Kingdom or when my washer/dryer will be delivered.

    WTC never demonstrated true scholarly brilliance because they had no true scholars. If we want to know what the scriptures mean when they refer to the millenial reign, 'coming shortly' and other time related expressions, it seems to make more sense to throw the baby out with the bath water that WTC ran and start from ground zero. When the cornerstone is flawed, the rest of the building will be likewise.

  • Fisherman


    “The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” “—Rev 11:15

    The Millennium is only part of it.

  • BoogerMan

    @ Fisherman - "That is why it is taking so long. God is waiting for everybody to repent."

    How does that work? The world's population increases yearly, and it appears less people are turning to Christianity?

    @ vidquin - You references -

    YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones.

    Thrones - (Gr. thronos) judges i.e. tribunal or bench. (Jesus said they would judge)

    a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,

    Being priests of the King/High priest would make them a royal priesthood. (not kings themselves)

    and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth. (Rev. 5:10)

    Rev. 20:6 - "...but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."

    In these last 2 scriptures which you quote, the Greek word βασιλεύς (basileús) does not exclusively mean 'king.' It also describes a leader of the people, prince, commander, lord of the land.

    In the original Greek (ignore Bible translations!) Revelation 5:10 says, "and they are to reign upon the earth," not 'over' it, as if they are in some sort of ethereal situation. The meek inherit the earth!

    In what capacity? Psalm 45:16 - "...princes in all the earth."

    Interestingly, regarding Revelation 20:6, no Bible translation - except the NWT - inserts the word 'king'

    All of them - without exception - translate the Greek word βασιλεύς (basileús) as 'reign,' not 'king.'

    Bottom line: What justification would any Christian have to claim a share of Christ's kingship & glory?

  • Vidqun

    Boogerman, I see you left Matt. 19:28 out. These sit on thrones. Who sits on a throne? See Rev. 3:21.

    "and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth." (Rev. 5:10 DBY).

    "You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth" [lit. "on," καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς]. (Rev. 5:10 GNT). (Rev. 5:10 CJB)

    So who is right? See Rev. 9:11: "They have as king over them [lit. "on," ἔχουσιν ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν βασιλέα] (NA28) the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon."

    According to the dictionaries and lexicons: ἐπὶ, marker of power, authority, control of or over someone or someth., over

    a. w. gen. (Hdt. 5, 109 al.; Mitt-Wilck. I/1, 124, 1=BGU 1120, 1 [5 BC] πρωτάρχῳ ἐ. τοῦ κριτηρίου; 287, 1; LXX; AscIs 2:5 τοῦ ἐ. τῶν πραγματε[ι] ῶν=Denis p. 109) βασιλεύειν ἐ. τινος (Judg 9:8, 10; 1 Km 8:7) Rv 5:10. ἔχειν βασιλείαν ἐ. τῶν βασιλέων 17:18. ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν ἐ. τινος have power over someone 20:6. See BDAG.

    Christians are referred to as kings in Rev 1:6 (v.l.); 5:10 (v.l.). e) Βασιλεύς is used for the king of the а ἄβυσσος in Rev 9:11. See EDNT.

    As for βασιλεύω, I can't find any dictionary or lexicon backing you up. Yes it means "reign" (with a king in mind) • βασιλεύω fut. βασιλεύσω; 1 aor. ἐβασίλευσα; pf. 3 sg. βεβασίλευκεν 2 Km 5:10 (Hom.+) to exercise authority at a royal level, be king, rule (B-D-F §177; 233, 2; 234, 5; Rob.: 801, 833, 902). See BDAG.

    βασιλεύω be king, rule w. gen. over or of something Mt 2:22; also w. ἐπί and gen. or acc. Lk 19:14, 27; Rv 5:10. Fig. Ro 5:14 . Of God and Christ Rv 11:15. In aor. (ingressive) become king Rv 11:17; 19:6. [pg 34] Gingrich Lex

    βασιλεύω [βασιλεύς] be king, rule 1 Ti 6:15; w. simple gen. over/of Mt 2:22; also w. ἐπί and gen. Rv 5:10, or acc. Lk 1:33 . In imagery Ro 5:14; 5:21ab; 6:12. – In the aor. β. = become king 1 Cor 4:8; Rv 11:17; 19:6. DankerLex

    Ordinary rule: ἄρχω, by a ruler: to rule or govern, w. implication of special status, rule act. w. gen. over someth. or someone.

    ἄρχων: ruler. one who has eminence in a ruling capacity, ruler, lord, prince. See BDAG. Interestingly, Jesus is referred to as "ruler over the kings of the earth" in Rev. 1:9. At that stage he was not yet king.

    But Boogerman, I do it my way and you do it your way. You can believe what you like and interpret the Scriptures in any way. Let me not stand in your way. As long as you are happy with what you believe.

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