Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    slimboyfat

    "can any Trinitarian explain why Jesus as “Lord” adoni/kyrios is distinguished from and subordinate to YHWH in Psalm 110.1?"

    On the one hand, this distinction exists only in Hebrew, and according to the original context of the Psalm, it referred to David, a man.

    It's very simple: the Messianic King is the one in whom change can take place, in whom there is a novum, that after his resurrection and ascension he was seated at the "right hand of the Father". Jesus is the Messianic King according to his human nature, so his human nature is exalted and glorified. And according to his human nature, he is indeed not God, not YHWH, but a man.

    You are asking the same question as stated in Matthew 22:45: "If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?" The answer is simple: The Messiah is the son of David according to his human nature, and his Lord according to his divine nature.But the Pharisees considered their expected political Messiah to be a wonderful king sent from heaven, but not the son of God.

    Psalm 110 prophesies the eternal royal and priestly dignity of the Messiah-King and is of a strictly messianic nature. This was the interpretation of Jewish scripture, the New Testament authors, and even the Jesus himself, who applied the first verse of Psalm 110 to himself during a dispute with the Pharisees and also testified to the suggested intent of the psalm (Matthew 22:43, 44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42, 43). Peter interpreted the first verse of Psalm 110 as referring to the Ascension of Jesus Christ in his first Pentecostal speech (Acts 2:34, 35), Paul deduced the eternal rule of Jesus Christ according to his human nature from the same Psalm verse (1 Corinthians 15:25), and proved the Savior's divinity (Hebrews 1:13), as well as his eternal priestly dignity (Hebrews 10:12, 13). All New Testament passages where it is mentioned that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father (Acts 7:55; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20, 22; Hebrews 8:1; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; 5:1, 7) are referring to Psalm 110:1. The fourth verse of Psalm 109 is the basis for the exposition in the seventh chapter of the Letter to the Hebrews, which states that the New Testament priesthood is superior to the Old Testament priestly order; the same psalm verse is quoted in Hebrews 5:6. The Church Fathers and Christian commentators in general apply this psalm directly to the Messiah without exception. Added to this is the fact that certain expressions of Psalm 110 could not possibly apply to any earthly ruler or high priest (e.g., sitting at the right hand of God, having a share in God's world domination, being an eternal high priest). Therefore it rightly can be listed this Psalm among the messianic psalms.

    Psalm 110 is one of the most important parts of the Old Testament from a dogmatic point of view, because it teaches most clearly the royal power, world domination, priestly dignity of the Messiah, and thus the cessation of the Old Testament priesthood of Aaron and the establishment of the New Testament priesthood.

    In this Psalm, a majestic king is glorified, whom God has taken as a co-regent (verses 1 and 2), who, surrounded by holy warriors (verse 3), not only holds royal, but also the priestly dignity in the order of Melchizedek (verse 4), and those who do not want to submit to his rule, he crushes with the mighty power he gained in poverty and warfare (verse 7) (verses 5 and 6). That this glorious king is the Messiah was unanimously believed by the ancient Jews, as Matthew 22:43, Mark 12:36, and Luke 20:42 reveal, where Jesus assumes this belief in them and proves the superhuman nature of the Messiah from this psalm to the Jews of his time. Just as Jesus in the mentioned places, so the apostles in Acts 2:34, 36, 5:31, 1 Corinthians 15:25, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 7:17, as well as the church fathers and the entire church have understood this psalm from the beginning as referring to the Messiah.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    pizzahut2023 : The Watchtower accepts "MarYah" and/or "MarYa" as being equivalent to "Jehovah".

    The word māryā is a transliteration of the Syriac characters into the Latin alphabet. The Syriac of Mark 12:36 is shown below.

    The word māryā (meaning "the LORD") ends with an aleph which represents long ā, as I said previously. When you are transliterating it you can add an 'h' on the end but it is not there in the Syriac, so there is no basis for treating it as the word yāh simply because it is used as a substitute for God's name in the OT.

    aqwsed12345 : On the one hand, this distinction exists only in Hebrew...

    You will note above that it also exists in Syriac.

  • aqwsed12345
  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Greg Stafford and other scholars would have a blast in here - There are many Hebrew words that have an "H" added or translated with a "J" even though there is no "J" in Hebrew

    again I reiterate Wonderments challenge (echoed from another user)

    The Letter "H":

    Lets just look at the Greek (masculine) definite article "" according to: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF

    The article is an omicron, the 15th letter in the Greek alphabet corresponding the the English "o" (cap: O)
    We don't say "O theos" we say "ho theos" and when written most interlinear Iv seen translate this as "ho" though in Greek its just an "O" (Omicron, modifyed)

    Ill do a Hebrew example if I have too, But your complaint is not only unfounded but also inherently wrong and biased due to only picking on a single word. When there are other words who according to you adding "h" is unfounded - Go tell that to scholars from the last 3 decades and see how far you get (hint: you will get destroyed)

    as to Psalm 110:1,

    "Lord according to his divine nature" are you sure? Id take a closer look if I was you - lets take a look at a footnote from the NET bible shall we? (https://netbible.org/bible/Acts+2 - Footnote: 78 ):

    "Peter’s point is that the Lord on whom one calls for salvation is Jesus because he is the one mediating God’s blessing of the Spirit as a sign of the presence of salvation and the last days."

    The NET Bible has no issue with regarding Jesus as God, however here they neither point to the "incarnation" nor "Godhood" - infact here apparently "God" is someone else.
    So David calls him Lord for this reason - but also because he pre-existed David.

    also note: Rev 22:16

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Blotty

    I was talking about Hebrew, where the "H" (he, ה‎) is often pronounced softly, and is practically silent at the end of a word. So they mark the "H" but often don't pronounce it. Thus, when pronounced, Yahweh sounds: /ˈjɑː(h)weɪ/ - thus a weak, almost silent [h] in in the middle, and silent one at end, and the "e" pronunced long, like in the word "café".

    In Greek, it is just the other way around, [h] is not spelled out, but pronounced, but not strongly, like the letter J in European Spanish.

    The biblical names are inteed spelled and pronounced differently today in modern languages than they were in their time. E.g. Yirməyāhū -> Yeremias -> Jeremiah. But these names are not sacred names in the sense that the Holy Tetragrammaton is. If you really want to utter it, you can definitely do it only the way it was originally done, or at least in the form closest to it. So the English "J" is an impossibility just because there is no "J" sound in Hebrew.

    Can you say to that, but then the name of Jesus is not sacred? Yes indeed, on the other hand, there is already a biblical precedent for the Greekization of his name, since the New Testament itself establishes that we do not call him Yeshua (or Yeshu) according to the original pronunciation, but as Iēsous in Greek, Latin Iesus let, develop this further in other languages, such as "Jesus" in English. However, there is no biblical precedent for such a pronunciation-changing transliteration of Yahweh's name.

    In fact, the entire denomination of Jehovah's Witnesses is a very good example of how correctand the logic of the Jews was regarding the non-pronunciation: on the one hand, the JWs pronounce it wrong, they have no liturgy (so liturgical use is out of the question, what remains is, in fact: profane), and they don't even understand its content (which means that he is "Who Is", not the one who "becomes" into this and that). The purpose of the name YHWH was to educate the Jews on monotheism and the pure theistic understanding that he is the transcendent absolute, the actus purus. In comparison, the JW image of God is antopomorphistic.

    In the Gospels, Jesus applies Psalm 110 to himself differently than Paul later applies to him in the epistle. By definition, Jesus took on human nature only at the time of his Incarnation, before that he was only God. Therefore, if the pre-existent Son is David's Lord, it can only be understood in terms of his divine nature.

    At the same time, according to Jewish interpretation, David wrote the Psalm 110 in the third person about himself, to be sung by the Levites in the Temple in Jerusalem, from a Jewish perspective the Levites would be saying that "the Lord spoke to my master", i.e. to David.

    However, at the same time, Jesus as a human Messiah-King received the title "Lord" due to his ascension to heaven, and the so-called communicatio idiomatum (communication of properties) also comes into play here, which means due to the hypostatic union, divine and human attributes can be asserted about the person of Christ according to his divine and human nature. The ἰδίωμα, ἰδιότης is a reality aspect in Christ, which is characteristic of one nature excluding the other. Since Christ is the personal, independent, and self-possessed owner of the divine and human natures, and ultimately the subject of every statement is the independent entity (suppositum, hypostasis) in the order of being, therefore the two sets of predicates (the divine and human attributes) can be communicated through the person, so that divine attributes can be asserted of Christ who is human, and human attributes can be asserted of the same Christ who is God. This is the communicatio idiomatum (κοινοποίησις, ἀντίδοσις ἰδιωμάτων, ἰδιοτήτων).

    The bearer of the two natures is the eternal Son, the person of the Logos. Only those who assume two subjects in Christ, like Nestorianism, can oppose it. Indeed, it was against this that the Church had to expressly defend the communication at the Council of Ephesus (Mary may be called the God-bearer, "theotokos"), after the Church had already widely practiced it in the Apostolic Creed and elsewhere.

    This manner of speech is used in the New Testament books (Lk 1:35; Jn 1:14; Acts 3:15; Rom 1:3; 9:5; 1 Cor 2:8; Phil 2:6), and can also be found in early church documents. The Scripture not only asserts divine and human attributes about the same one Christ in various places, but also in one sentence: "They crucified the Lord of Glory" (1 Cor 2:8; cf. Rom 8:32, Acts 3:15, 20:28, 1 Jn 3:16); and conversely: "Jesus said to them, 'Before Abraham was, I am'" (Jn 8:58; cf. 3:13).

    Theological consideration finds that the interchangeability of attributes directly follows from the dogma established by the Council of Chalcedon: "two distinct natures in one person". If Christ is indeed one independent entity and two sets of predicates (divine and human) can be pronounced about him, they can be communicated through the common subject. If, however, Christ is two subjects, of course, there is no place for a real communication (Nestorianism). And if Christ is not only one entity, but also one God-man nature, the attributes themselves also intermingle, become God-man, and again, a true statement communication is impossible (Monophysitism). From this follows the rules of the interchange of attributes, the knowledge and conscientious consideration of which is so significant for correct Christological thinking and expression.

    Basic rule: If we name Christ either from some aspect of the divine or the human nature with a concrete name (not an abstract name; which includes the names about the parts of Christ's humanity in substance, if not in form, such as: Christ's body, soul, imagination, etc.), we can assert divine attributes of Christ named on the basis of humanity and human attributes of Christ named on the basis of divinity. Therefore, it is permissible to say: The Son of God was hungry, cold, born of a woman, suffered; Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Virgin Mary, is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. Since the ontological basis of the communication of properties is the personal unity of the man Christ with the Word, every communication that feeds on Nestorian or Monophysite thought is erroneous.

    In ancient Christological debates, Gregory of Nyssa already differentiated between the use of concrete and abstract concepts (Contra Eunomium 5). Augustine regularly elaborated on the possibilities of assertion. When debating with Nestorians, the distinction played a role in determining to what extent Mary can be called Christ-bearer and to what extent she can be called God-bearer (theotokos). They went so far as to assume that there were essentially two persons in Christ, the divine and the human, and these were only incidentally united with each other. Against them, Cyril of Alexandria fought particularly. The Monophysites formally did not deny the communicatio idiomatum, but they gave it a meaning that indicated a mixture of the two natures. Adoptionism rejected the communicatio idiomatum. John of Damascus saw the basis for the hypostatic union in the mutual permeation of the two natures.

    In the Middle Ages, Scholastic theology developed the appropriate rules from traditional elements:

    1) The properties of the two natures can be asserted about the same subject.

    2) The basis for interchangeability is one person, not the two natures, therefore it is not valid in the opposition of the two natures (e.g., it cannot be said that the deity died on the cross)

    3) The interchangeability is only understandable if the concrete is related to the concrete, but not if we connect the abstract to the abstract or to the concrete.

    4) The testimonial statements must be formulated absolutely about the person of Christ, with negative ones supplemented restrictively.

    5) Statements about the establishment of personal unity cannot be applied to Christ as a man.

    These rules help to express faith correctly and point to the mystery of the incarnation.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "it can only be understood in terms of his divine nature." - many would disagree... including the NET - you jump to massive conclusions based on not much evidence.. next you'll tell me Olam in Hebrew means eternity... (it doesn't, according to many dictionaries) you prove my point with John 8:58 that's exactly how Jesus can be Davids Lord & also he is the seed of David

    "eternal logos" - I have a theory on that - Humans were created at a point in time right but are later said to live for eternity. eternity can work in 2 different directions past and future. I wonder if ancient Christian writers meant eternity in the future, not past.

    John 20:28 is a fun one in light of David being addressed in the same way.

    "Mary may be called the God-bearer, "theotokos"" - if you think Mary is the mother of God, where does this word appear in the bible? it doesn't

    "Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical organic method of philosophical analysis predicated upon the Aristotelian 10 Categories" - lol, literally using a philosophical argument, ok dude

    its funny those who go on about an incarnation tend to refer to scriptures but forget the bible says they are 2 seperate things "Divine" and "fleshly" - Jesus was a sinless Human... which is by definition a divine attribute (based on Bible events)

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Of course, Jesus was not human before the Incarnation, he did not have human nature, his human nature cannot be retroactively applied to the pre-existent Son. Check THIS too.

    Translating the term 'Theotokos' (Θεοτόκος) as "Mother of God" can lead to misunderstanding, it is more correct to translate it as "God-bearer", or rather "the bearer of God", a close paraphrase would be "[she] whose offspring is God" or "[she] who gave birth to one who was God". It is natural that God as such could not have a mother. But because Jesus was both God and man in one person, it is therefore perfectly correct to call the Virgin Mary "Theotokos". Because although God as such did not have a mother, he was the mother of that Jesus who was also God. The Pope's mother is also rightly called the Pope's mother, although she gave birth to the Pope not as a Pope, but as a small child.

    No one said that the term 'Theotokos' is in the Bible, but the expression "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43) is, even though Jesus received the title "the Lord" according to his human nature too, only after his resurrection and ascension to heaven (Philippians 2:9-11).

    The divine Logos is not eternal in the same way that the saved have "eternal life". Absolute eternity, (aeternitas) is the state of completely unchanging divine existence, where there is no succession: there is no beginning and end, no before and after, so an undivided and standing present. It follows of the Son was "was begotten from the Father, before all αἰώνs" (cf Hebrews 1:2).

    You will hardly be able to deal with scholasticism with the Watchowerite excuse that it is "philosophy". Anyway according to my belief "the philosophy" is usually not some satanic horrible thing in itself that has to be feared. According to Catholic Teaching, "faith seeks understanding, reason seeks faith" ("fides quaerens intellectum..."), and this fideist-fundamentalist-bibilistic approach is anything but a Christian requirement. I recommend reading the works of Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, whom I consider the greatest theologian of the 20th century.

    "There are also signs of a resurgence of fideism, which fails to recognize the importance of rational knowledge and philosophical discourse for the understanding of faith, indeed for the very possibility of belief in God. One currently widespread symptom of this fideistic tendency is a “biblicism” which tends to make the reading and exegesis of Sacred Scripture the sole criterion of truth." (John Paul II - Fides et Ratio)

    The statement in John 1:14 ("And the Word was made flesh") is not the same as Paul's understanding in 1 Corinthians 15:20, where "Flesh and blood" means the current mortal body, which cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, because corruption cannot be incorruptibility at the same time. Sinlessness in itself does not mean divine nature, the fullness of deity (Col 2:9) is much more than that, Jesus' sinlessness is to be understood as his humanity, since the principle of God cannot sin.

  • pizzahut2023
    pizzahut2023
    I don’t know why they didn’t include the divine name in Acts 19.10. Maybe they should have. A possible reason might be that Fred Franz didn’t find agreement in the Hebrew versions he used as guidance. The NWT said it erred on the side of caution as regards restoring the divine name in general. There are arguably a number of places where they could have included it but did not, especially in the book of Acts.

    I found out why. The Textus Receptus says "Word of the Lord Jesus". Which is why many Bibles, such as the King James Bible, says "Lord Jesus". The J versions are divided on this. For example, Hutter's Polyglot (J7) says "Lord Jesus" in most of the 14 languages (the one exception is Latin, where it just says "Lord"). Even the Hebrew says "Lord Jesus"... I can't read what it says in Aramaic, Polish, or Czech. The rest of the J versions I have examined (I am barely on J31) have "Lord", "Ha Adon" (the True Lord, a term reserved only for Jehovah in the Masoretic text, according to the Witnesses), or "Jehovah" (YAHWEH, Master YAHWEH, etc)....

    So even though the phrase "Word of the Lord" is understood to be exclusively "Word of Jehovah" in the Old Testament, it is not necessarily the case in the New Testament.

    SBF et al rely on George Howard's study to say that the "original" LXX and the "original" NT may have had the Tetragrammaton... but Howard's study at bestallows for the possibility of the Tetragrammaton being in quotes of the OT...
    That’s incorrect. Howard’s original article suggested that the divine name was used, not only in quotes, but also in certain established OT phrases, such as “angel of Jehovah”, and “word of Jehovah” you have been discussing here. It’s worth bearing in mind that the NWT was published before Howard’s article and has never been bound by his methodology, but in the matter of using the divine name in the phrase “word of Jehovah”, he supported the NWT’s approach.

    Thank you for pointing that out. He gave them a "carte blanche" to insert Jehovah wherever they wanted...

    We have discussed Heb 1.10 elsewhere. This quotation is from the Greek version of the Psalm which may have been interpreted as a messianic Psalm and used kyrios for the Hebrew equivalent Adonai rather than the divine name, just as was the case with the second “Lord” in the often quoted 110th Psalm.

    I am sorry. How can you see that chapter as Messianic?? The WHOLE thing refers to Jehovah!!!

    Read it in the New World Translation, it says "Jehovah" tons of times! There is one moment where the human talks about himself, about how he's mortal, but then he goes back to describing Jehovah as immortal and the Creator.

    Btw can any Trinitarian explain why Jesus as “Lord” adoni/kyrios is distinguished from and subordinate to YHWH in Psalm 110.1? Judging by the popularity of that Psalm among early Christians they were in absolutely no doubt that Jesus was distinct and subordinate to Jehovah.
    Jehovah declared to my Lord:“Sit at my right handUntil I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

    Not in every J version.

    There are some J versions that imply that Jesus said "Jehovah":

    J29 and J30 pretty much say the same thing (I quote J29)

    Matthew 22:43-45

    43. He said to them, "And how did David by The Spirit call him THE LORD JEHOVAH, for he said:"

    44. 'THE LORD JEHOVAH said to my Lord, 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet'? *

    45. "If therefore David called him THE LORD JEHOVAH*, how is he his son?"

    You are completely correct that the NWT may be not be right about every instance where the divine name
    should be restored. That’s an easy point to concede because they have implied as much themselves and
    have simply claimed to do the best they could on the available evidence.

    I am sorry, can you share WT quotes where they have said such a thing? Every single thing I read, they're very sure

    of having "restored" the Name to the "right" places. In any case. if they truly respected the available evidence, they would have

    put "Jehovah" thousands of times in the OT, and ZERO in the NT.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Personally I think Fred Franz invested far too much faith in the so-called J, or Hebrew versions as a guide for where to restore the divine name. Apart from the couple of Hebrew versions that possibly reflect ancient originals, I don’t see why Hebrew versions should have any more weight than the judgment of other modern translators, or more importantly, internal and external considerations in the individual texts themselves.

    Psalm 102 isn’t messianic in the Hebrew original, but the author of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 101 in the Greek version. The Hebrew version doesn’t have the word Lord or the name YHWH in verse 25. It says:

    In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    But the Greek version of the Psalm uses the word Lord.

    26 In the beginning thou, O Lord, didst lay the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

    Some commentators have noted that God appears to be speaking to this “Lord” because in the previous verse in the Greek it says:

    24 He answered him in the way of his strength: tell me the fewness of my days. 25 Take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are through all generations. 26 In the beginning thou, O Lord, didst lay the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

    It seems like a radically different take, but parts of the LXX were read as Christological statements like this, that are quite different from their original contexts. Note the Christian reading of the “young woman” in Isaiah 7, the “angel of great counsel” in Isaiah 9, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53, the messianic king in Psalm 2,45, 110, and so on.

    In the context of Hebrews chapter 1 we have already been told that it is God who created through his Son in Heb 1.2. So presumably Heb 1.10 was meant to complement that statement, not contradict it. The quotation of Psalm 101 in the LXX was intended to underline the part that the Son of God played in the creation of the physical heavens and earth, and the contrast between him as the instrument of creation who will never fade, and the nature of material things that wear out over time.

    I need to think about where I got the idea that the NWT erred on the side of caution in where to restore the divine name. It’s probably in the front matter of the versious editions of the NWT and KIT but I haven’t checked.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat


    Hopefully you can make out that photo. It is from FF Bruce’s commentary on Hebrews, where he explains that it is God who is addressing the Son as “Lord” in Heb 1.10 in accordance with a messianic interpretation of Psalm 101 in the Greek. You can read the commentary at the following link, although I think you need to make an account with the archive site, which is well worth doing anyway.

    https://archive.org/details/epistletohebrews0000ffbr/page/22/mode/2up?view=theater

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