Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Earnest

    There were different orientations and sects, of course, for example within Judaism there were the Pharisees, the larger one, and the Sadducees, the smaller leading party. Although they were in dispute with each other, they basically accepted each other as the representatives of the mainstream Judaism, as opposed to, for example, the Samaritans, Essenes, Gnostics, etc. They were considered heterodox, heretics (minim). Of course, none of these used "Jehovah" in the manner of the Watchtower in the era of Christ, but don't let that bother you.

    If you have read the apostolic epistles, you would know that the first heresies were not related to the nature of the Son, but about the continued obligation of the Mosaic law (Galatians-Judaizers), or about Gnosticism. There is no sign of any debate about the role, use, etc. of the Old Testament divine name YHWH being a topic in primitive Christianity. Sources outside of Christianity do not testify to such a thing either, after all, if the Christians had suddenly started "using" the YHWH in various ways, they would have provoked the anger of the Jews, and it would have turned into pogroms. The Romans would also have written about such clashes. But there is no sign of such uproar because of this alleged issue.

    I don't understand why you are upset about this, since the Watchtower doesn't object the application of "theos" for the Son, they do not object to the established reading of either John 1:1 or John 1:8 ("monogenes theos"), but of course they reinterpret its meaning to as some kind of "demigod", disregarding the command "thou shalt have no other gods before me". And there is no difference in the fact that according to them Jesus led the Jews out of Egypt, so they can have no problem with any of the readings of Jude 5.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    aqwsed12345:

    Your long answer is indicative that those who push trinitarianism as true biblical doctrine are uncapable to answer basic questions like the two I posted:

    >> Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: The "I" from his lips could signify his divinity as well as his humanity.

    Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: As God, he was equal to the Father, even one with him in unity; but as a man, he was clearly lesser than the Father.

    Please provide one or two scriptures which simply say what you claim! <<

    You first answered:

    While indeed this is the main reason, Trinitarians do not have to explain Jesus' kind of "subordination" exclusively from His humanity: it can exist even if we consider that He is the Son, and the Father is the Father. This does not imply a difference in divinity, but only voluntary (love-related) subordination resulting from the order of origin. Another explanation could be what ancient ecclesiastical authors called "economy of salvation," which they understood as mutual adaptation for the sake of salvation in action and operation.

    This does not answer the above questions simply. Then you proceeded to select some Scriptures which by scholar's own admissions are debatable within the biblical community. And furthermore, they do not serve any proof of the above.

    Lastly you wrote: And Col 2:9 clearly proves that Jesus possessed the fullness (pleroma) of the deity (theotes, and not theitotes), not just some kind of demigod, lesser god ("a god") "quality". (Emphasis added.)

    Really? Col 1.19 states: "...God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him." It was by an act of God almighty that this fullness of Christ came about. If Jesus was God all along, why would it be necessary for him to receive "all fullness" that he was lacking somehow. Col 2.10 says the Christian Colossians "have acquired a fullness by means of him, the one who is the head of all government and authority." What kind of fullness is this reference about?

    Someone may say, that as a man Christ was not all of God, but once in heaven he regained his glory, attributes and wisdom pertaining to God alone. If so, Jesus was not God and man fully as claimed on earth as we are repeatedly told to believe, a contradiction that can only be explained by Greek philosophical arguments that require many paragraphs of intent. Hard as I tried, I could not find the great difference that supposedly exists between the Greek term theotes and theiotes, other than the wishful declarations of Trinitarians on the subject.

    And that's my point! Poster "smiddy" was right challenging anyone to simply explain the Trinity without sounding as a philosopher of ancient Greece. "smiddy" is still waiting for someone to take up his challenge, and you are welcome to fulfill it, and publish it for us to read.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Wonderment

    You can poke fun, but maybe you could know the Bible enough to know that it is not a book of theology, it is not a book of dogmatics, it will not declare it like the Chalcedonian Creed. But he teaches in terms of content: that He was God, and that He also became man. These are two different natures, and by definition, different attributes are associated with them.

    It's like having two baskets and a bunch of apples. Red apples go into one basket, green apples into the other. In the Holy Scriptures, statements ("apples") suggesting Jesus' deity go into one "basket" (referring to his divinity), those referring to his humanity go into the other. Christian theology is precisely about the fact that no "apple" has to be thrown out or distorted, as the NWT does, but only put in the right "basket".

    So is it sufficient for you, to prove the existence of those two "baskets", or should I prove it in every single statements that which one does it belong to? Or is say: it's purely logical (for example, Jesus suffered, as God cannot suffer, as human he can, so it's meant according to his humanity), you will cry: "It's philosophy!"

    Don't forget that, according to Nicene theology, the Son received both his existence and his divinity from the Father, but not in time and not in a derivative, separable manner. Just a reminder: "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten." (Athanasian Creed)

    Between theotes and theiotes, that certain letter i means the same thing as in the case of homoousious and homoiousous. The first means deity (godhead), the second means divinity, divine nature, godlike character. So without the "i" it means possessing the very same quality of God, thus being truly and fully God, with it a lesser, similar ("kind of") divine quality. The apostle uses the first.

    Let's see the WTS' arguments you were refering to (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

    "Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”".

    But the Greek text has no trace of it being the will of the Father, on the contrary, the Fullness wanted it that way: "hoti en autō eudokēsen pan to plērōma katoikēsai". This fullness is, according to the immediate precedent, the fullness of deity, not some vague, diffusive, and indistinct divine "nature" fullness. Your denomination is trying to restrict this to some undefined attributes, which the apostle does not do.

    However, it is clear: you are trying desperately to plug in here this mistranslating divine "nature" so that you can then abruptly turn to the Peter letter, which you are desperately trying to flatten out the divine fullness dwelling in Jesus, stammering that according to Peter, believers also became partakers of the divine nature, and so the divine nature of Jesus is no more than this. These Watchtower struggles are transparent, and they can be nailed firmly to the ground here, where they may continue to wriggle to the great amusement of those who know the Bible.

    "In him, and not in the creators or teachers of human philosophies, does this precious "fullness" dwell."

    This is awkward, evasive sidetracking: a childish stirring of emotions with buzzwords against the doctrine of the Trinity, which also appeared in philosophical garb from the 4th century. But it took its essential content from the Bible, not from any philosophy.

    "Is the Apostle Paul perhaps saying here that the "fullness" in Christ makes Christ himself God? According to Colossians 3:1, no, because here we read of Christ that he "sits at the right hand of God."

    This is not a refutation, because here the word God refers to the Father (elsewhere it refers to Jesus). The believers in the Trinity never claimed that Jesus is identical with the Father, and thus sits at his own right hand.

    "Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father"

    But the fullness of deity does.

    "Just as "humanity" or "human nature" does not mean that every human is equal or coeternal any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age."

    Except that it does mean that in their humanity, all humans are equal, and so in parallel: in their deity, the Father and the Son are equal (Phil 2:6).

    The fact that you simply label the concept that time itself is a created reality as "philosophy" (although the New Testament uses many terms used in Greek philosophy), which in WTS terminology has a pejorative meaning (I would rather call it common sense, logical conclusion), doesn't refute it.

    I note that what the Watchtower labels with the term "philosophy" is usually nothing more than the use of common sense, logic, and conclusions. Of course, they want to discourage their rank-and-file members from this, so that they don't end up using the particular organ that is in their skull, because "OMG! That's philosophy!" Cf. Thought-terminating cliché

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed : And there is no difference in the fact that according to [the Watchtower] Jesus led the Jews out of Egypt, so they can have no problem with any of the readings of Jude 5.

    Perhaps I was not clear in the point I have been making since you raised the matter of the "new reading" in NA28 of the name "Jesus" in Jude vs 5 here.

    It is irrelevant whether or not the Watchtower has a problem with the reading of Jude 5. It is relevant that prior to NA28, the majority of the UBS Committee held that the use of "Jesus" in this verse was "difficult to the point of impossibility" even though it was supported by a number of manuscripts.

    In the field of textual criticism, biblical scholars weigh up the textual variation in available manuscripts and try to determine what original text most likely explains the variation that followed. In Jude vs 5 there is a wealth of variation as follows :

    παντα απαξ γαρ Ιησους — 1739mg
    απαξ παντα οτι Ιησους — A B 33 81 2344 itdem,div vgmss (eth) Jerome
    απαξ παντα οτι κυριος — Ephraem
    απαξ τουτο οτι ο θεος — 5 623mg
    απαξ παντα οτι ο θεος — Cc 623 2805 vgms (slav)
    απαξ παντας οτι θεος Χριστος𝔓72*
    απαξ παντα οτι θεος Χριστος𝔓72c
    παντα οτι κυριος απαξ — א Ψ
    παντα οτι ο κυριος απαξ — C* 307 326 431 436 453 630 808 1505 1611 2138 2200 2412 2495 syrh
    παντα οτι ο θεος — Lucifer
    παντα οτι ο θεος απαξ — 442 621 1243 1845 1846 2492 𝑙596 itp vgmss syrph arm geo Clementvid
    παντα οτι Ιησους — Cyril
    παντα οτι Ιησους απαξ — 6 93 322 323 665 1241 1501 1739 1881 2298 itar,c cop Origenper 1739
    παντα οτι ο Ιησους απαξ — 88 915
    απαξ οτι ο κυριος — 1409
    απαξ τουτο οτι ο κυριος — L 049 18 35 61 104 181 254 307 326 330 431 436 451 453 629 808 (909) 945 1067 1175 1292 1678 1836 1837 1844 (1875) 1877 2127 2374 𝔐 Lectpt Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact
    απαξ τουτο οτι Χριστος Ιησους — 1735 𝑙591
    τουτο απαξ οτι ο κυριος — K 056 𝑙593
    απαξ τουτο υμας οτι ο κυριος — 0142
    As this thread is about "Jehovah in the NT" I pointed out that the textual confusion could have occurred because Jude originally used God's name in some form and subsequent copyists chose to replace it with an alternative. This is not suggesting any "conspiracy" which you go on about, but simple human nature who (in a possible scenario) come across the Hebrew tetragrammaton or the Greek PIPI (which Jerome mentions [Letter 25 to Marcella]) in the text and replaces it with something which makes more sense to them. If you think this scenario is unlikely, I am asking for thoughts on a more plausible text which would explain the variation that followed.
  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 : [The Samaritans, Essenes, Gnostics, etc.] were considered heterodox, heretics (minim). Of course, none of these used "Jehovah" in the manner of the Watchtower in the era of Christ, but don't let that bother you.

    In the Tractate Sabbath the Tosefta lays down the rules for Jews to observe the sabbath. It makes an exception in certain instances, one of which is where sacred books are at risk of burning.

    However, Shabath 13:5 says that in the case of the gospels (gilyohnim) and books of the minim, they "are not saved from fire; but one lets them burn together with the names of God written upon them. Rabbi Jose the Galilean says : On week days the names of God are cut out and hidden while the rest is burned. Rabbi Tarphon says that if they fall into my hands I shall burn them together with the names of God." It is unlikely that "names of God" does not include the most obvious name, the tetragrammaton.

    Whoever the minim were, and quite likely they included Christians who had apostasized from Judaism, it does seem that they used the names of God in their writings in the era of Christ.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Earnest

    I think you should look up, even in the footnotes of Nestle-Aland, how many passages in the New Testament are there, where there are several readings, and fluctuations can be observed in this. "Jesus", "Lord Jesus", "the Lord", "Christ Jesus", etc. I think it follows from this that there must have been "Jehovah" in all such places. Well, that's a pretty unscientific proposition.

    The fact that Jerome and Origen (and of course many others) were writing about that YHWH was included in the Old Testament undermines the Watchtower's hypothesis that an early Christian church was driven by the superstitious erasure of the name YHWH from everywhere.

    The fact that there were many versions of the manuscripts also proves that there was no direct will or central authority that wanted or was able to make a single established version of the NT text exclusive and destroy all others without a trace. So in Christianity there was no such figure as, like Uthman in the Islam, who ordered the compilation of the standard version of the Quran, and destroyed other versions.

    This is indeed a conspiracy theory, what the WTS presents here: without any specific direct (manuscript) or indirect (report about such a manuscript) evidence they claim that all the early Bible copyists of the New Testament, and even the entire Church itself, were evil, "apostate", and Bible forgers.

    Even the Watchtower praises Jerome and presents him as an honest Bible translator in thir articles, even though according to their logic he was also an evil, "apostate". Although there were many manuscripts that no longer exist in his time, and Jerome collated them during his translation of the Vulgate, he nowhere indicated that he had seen even a single New Testament document containing YHWH.

    The Watchtower's argument is completely priceless speculation, they refer to such as "reasonable" that Jesus and the apostles and these alleged proto-Watchtowerite Christians of the first century "used" the "Jehovah", because Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Well, yes, but Jesus always indicated specifically what he objected to in the teaching and practice of the Pharisees, and neither Jesus nor the apostles objected to the Jewish tradition of not pronouncing the Name, it was simply not an issue!

    During the time of Christ, the name Yahweh was no longer used in everyday life; Adonai had displaced it from common usage. The people had not read or pronounced it for two centuries; the majority were not even aware that it had once been commonly used, and even fewer knew its actual pronunciation. Although they heard this sacred name every day during the priestly blessing at the temple, they could not clearly identify it because the extended melody with which the priests sang it somewhat drowned it out.

    However, during the time of the oppressive reign of the Hellenizing Syrians, to avoid misuse and misinterpretation, the name Yahweh was no longer pronounced clearly, but was rather swallowed up in the customary melody so that the uninitiated could not understand it. Rabbi Tarfon, a priest and scholar who survived the destruction of the temple, testified to this (Tosefta Berakhot VII; Kiddushin 71a). The daily worship service concluded with the priestly blessing, which was part of the supplementary part of the service. (See Benediction and Ite missa est!). There was no blessing at the evening sacrifice.

    Only the priests and the scribes knew it. However, only the priests pronounced it in the temple when they said the blessing. Outside the temple, in the synagogues, only Adonai was allowed to be used. According to Tamid VII/2 (v. Sota VIl, 6), "In the temple, they pronounced the Name as it is written, but in the country (outside the temple, in the synagogues) its alias," (i.e., Adonai).

    It was an extremely solemn event when the high priest pronounced the sacred name of Yahweh at the three confessions on the Day of Atonement, which, however, he did later, because of frivolous people and to avoid abuses, not loudly, but quietly (Jerusalem Sanhedrin Chapter III 40b)

    The fact that the priests were an exception was based on the clear command of God himself, according to which they had to pronounce His name in order to bless the sons of Israel (Numbers 6:23-27). The fact that it was only permitted for the priesthood to pronounce this name in the Jerusalem temple was justified by referring to Deuteronomy 12:21 and 14:24, because the temple is identified there as the place chosen by God to place His name and dwell there.

    Apart from the priestly blessing, it was only permissible to pronounce the name of Yahweh in two cases: 1. In the case of the trial against the blasphemer during the testimony, where they wanted the eldest of the witnesses to reproduce the blasphemy exactly as the defendant had said it and to pronounce the name of God as the blasphemer had pronounced it. After the witness pronounced the name of Yahweh, the judges stood up and, in a sign of great outrage and pain, tore their clothes, which they never sewed back together. The second (and, if there was one, the third) witness only added: I can say the same. (Sanhedrin VII. 5; 55b - 56a). - 2. It was also pronounced during the education of the young men, when they communicated this sacred name to them with due caution in secret.

    With the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70, the last refuge for the sacred name of Yahweh also disappeared, and over time the circle of those who knew how to pronounce this name correctly became smaller and smaller. Therefore, in order not to let it completely disappear, but still to exclude profanation, they allowed, with certain restrictions, that the priests could secretly and carefully communicate the name of Yahweh not only to the priests but also to other worthy and reliable devout disciples, but only once, at most twice a year. (Kiddushin 71a).

    Eventually, due to secrecy, the original vocalization of this sacred name was completely forgotten among Jewish scholars, so that today no one knows its exact original pronunciation; an attempt to establish this by those outside the Jewish community is essentially only conjecture, which only has more or less probability, because non-Jewish witnesses mostly give the pronunciation of the Hebrew name in Greek transcription, not quite clearly (and cannot give it); and because they differ in their data. These non-Jewish witnesses are partly pagans, partly Christians.

    Despite all the secrecy of the Jews, the pagans somehow learned to approximate the pronunciation of this much-concealed name (perhaps through the Egyptian Hellenistic Jews). Here, of course, we are not thinking of such strange pronunciations, readings, such as those recorded by some old Christian writers. Thus, Jerome informs in one of his letters (which Origen also mentions) that the Greeks who do not understand Hebrew, reading the tetragrammaton, the letters of this similar to Greek, from left to right said PIPI. The explanation for this is that there was an area where Jews and pagans met each other: magic, witchcraft, which was practiced by the ancient peoples without national difference and thus was international. Jewish and pagan witchcraft influenced each other. Since names in general, and especially the names of God, had great significance in magic, knowledge of the secret name of the Jewish God was of practical benefit to the "sorcerers" - whether they were Jews or pagans - they therefore tried to find out the secret.

    And that they succeeded is evidenced by the magical texts of the pagan sorcerer papyri, in which we also come across Greek transcriptions of the four-letter name of God among the Jewish god names appearing in the magic formulas. And it is surprising that the pagan transcriptions of this name largely coincide with the transcriptions found in Christian church fathers and writers. This circumstance makes it clear that the pagan and Christian transcriptions can be traced back to a common source, that is, these Jewish god names originate from Jews.

    It's clear that the pronunciation "Jehovah", which emerged during the Christian Middle Ages and can still be heard today from uninitiated Christians, a pronunciation never used by the Jews, is incorrect. This is common knowledge among scholars. It's known that the punctuators of the Hebrew text, the so-called Masoretes, when they supplied the Hebrew text of the Scripture (around the 7th century AD) which had so far only marked the consonants, with the vowels of traditional pronunciation, kept in mind the Jewish prohibition of pronouncing the name of God. In accordance with the Jewish custom of reading Adonai (אֲדֹנָי) instead of YHWH, they added the vowels of the Hebrew word Adonai to the unpronounceable four consonants, slightly altering the first vowel (e.g., instead of אֲדֹנָי, they put אֲדֹנָי), thus forming a word which was read as Adonai. Wherever Adonai already appears immediately next to YHWH, to avoid the repetition of the same word, the vowels of Elohim were added to YHWH, thus forming יְהֹוִה, which was read as Elohim.

    The Masoretes, in their religious scrupulousness, wanted to make the pronunciation of YHWH impossible in order to protect it from profanation. This was one of the 'fences' conceived by Rabbinic thought to prevent the violation of the prohibition contained in Exodus 20:7.

    It is therefore clear that the linguistically distorted form "Jehovah" (which makes no sense) comes from reading the consonants of YHWH with the vowels of Adonai, a mistaken pronunciation that began to gain popularity around 1520, when Peter Galatinus (d. circa 1540), a Franciscan monk and orientalist, later the confessor of Pope Leo X, recommended its adoption in his work 'De arcanis catholicae veritatis' (II, 10) published in 1518 in Ortona. This pronunciation was also adopted by Martin Luther, although several people protested against it at the time.

    Religious Jews still show their respect for the sacred name Yahweh by never pronouncing it (as they do not know its original pronunciation), instead saying either Adonai or HaShem in its place. Even though they regard its pronunciation as forbidden, they are allowed to pronounce each of its four consonants separately (Yod, He, Vav, He). Refer to Sebuot 34a; Sopherim 4; Abot De-Rabbi Nathan 34; Yer. Megillah 1, 9.

    In writing, it has also become customary to merely indicate this sacred name in abbreviated form. This used to be done with either four, three, or two Yod characters (י), thus: יי, ייי, or simply with a He (ה), which is an abbreviation for HaShem.

    The text is Shabbat 116a, which reads as follows:

    "With regard to the blank folios [gilyohnim] and the Torah scrolls of heretics [minim], one does not rescue them from the fire; rather, they burn in their place, they and the names of God contained therein. What, is this not referring to the blank folios of a Torah scroll? The Gemara rejects this: No, it is referring to the blank folios of the scrolls of heretics [minim]. The Gemara is surprised at this: Now, with regard to the scrolls of heretics [minim] themselves, one does not rescue them; is it necessary to say that one does not rescue their blank folios? Rather, this is what it is saying: And the scrolls of heretics are like blank folios.
    With regard to the blank folios and the Torah scrolls of the heretics, one does not rescue them from the fire. Rabbi Yosei says: During the week, one cuts the names of God contained therein and buries them, and burns the rest. Rabbi Tarfon said in the form of an oath: I will bury my sons if I fail to do the following, that if these books come into my possession I will burn them and the names contained therein."

    According to the Watchtower Society, the word minim (heretic) refers to Christians, but in reality, we can speculate among three possibilities. The minim either refers to heretical Jews (Bick's opinion), or to Christians (according to the Society), or to such Judaizing Christians who were also considered heretics by the early Christian Church (for example, the Ebionites).

    The Jews actually did not call Christians "minim" (heretics), but "nosri" (Nazarenes). Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220, Against Marcion, 4:8) records that the Jews called Christians "Nazarenes" from Jesus being a man of Nazareth, though he also makes the connection with Nazarites in Lamentations 4:7. Jerome too records that, in the synagogues, the word "Nazarenes" was used to describe Christians. Eusebius, around 311 CE, records that the name "Nazarenes" had formerly been used of Christians.

    So this Talmudic text is most likely about some writing of the Jewish heretics (e.g. Sadducees, Nazoraeans, Samaritans etc.) Or those labelled as "minim" by the Rabbis were Gnostics who originated in Jewish circles pre-dating Christianity, and that gilyonim were 'tablets' bearing a gnostic "Ophite diagram" as described by Celsus and Origen. This would explain the opposition from Rabbi Tarfon.

    Karl Georg Kuhn (‘Judentum Urchristentum Kirche’, 1964) argues that:

    • the Talmud passage (Shabbat 116a) is clearly later than the passages from the Tosefta, and too late to be used as a source for the Jamnian period;
    • in the Tosefta passages citing Rabbi Tarfon, sifrei minim should be understood not as gospels but as Old Testament texts belonging to heterodox Jewish groups such as those at Qumran as well as to Jewish Christians; and gilyonim should be understood not as gospels but as Marginalia cut off from Biblical texts;
    • Rabbi Tarfon is unlikely to have made a pun on books being called ‘gospels’ earlier than Christians were known to have called their books ‘gospels’;
    • Rabbi Tarfon is unlikely to have punned gilyonim on merely the second half of the word ‘euangelion’, and there are other grammatical problems making it unlikely that a pun on ‘euangelion’ is in play.

    Daniel Boyarin, in line with Kuhn, understands the books to which Rabbi Tarfon referred to be Torah scrolls. Marvin R. Wilson takes the term 'minim' in the Talmud as originally denoting all “dissidents, apostates and traitors” rather than Christians in particular.

    I don't think it is reasonable that the Jews would have thought of the manuscripts of the New Testament here, after Gentile Christianity was completely separated from the Jewish religion, there was no passage between the two, the Jews distanced themselves from the Christians, and did not care in the least about what their in their writings and what not. In addition, the Jews were not in power, there were fewer of them than the Christians. The Jews had no jurisdiction over the Christians to order the burning of their writings that allegedly contained the name of YHWH. The word gilyonim in the plural, means several copies of a single work, not multiple different gospels.

    Moreover, in Jewish understanding, not only YHWH is considered the name of God, but all of these: Adonai, El, Elohim, Shaddai, Tzevaot, Ha-Shem, Ehyeh. So, when a Jewish text speaks of the "divine name," it does not necessarily refer to the Tetragrammaton. And you can see: in text they speak in plural: "names of God".

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed : I think it follows from [textual variation] that there must have been "Jehovah" in all such places. Well, that's a pretty unscientific proposition.

    Of course I never made that proposal. I was specifically addressing Jude vs 5 and was proposing 'Jehovah' as a possible cause of the variation in that verse. When addressing variation in a text there are certain common principles that can be observed but each text is different and it does not simply follow that the cause of variation will be the same. One common principle considered is whether the text contains a quotation of the Old Testament which includes God's name, and in these cases greater weight can be given to the probability that the use of God's name in some form by the writer gave rise to variation among the copyists. In the case of Jude vs 5 it alludes to Exodus 12:41 and Numbers 14:35, both of which contain God's name. When the reading ("Jesus") is "difficult to the point of impossibility" (UBS Committee) you have to consider what may have caused the variation. It is unlikely that a copyist would replace "God" or "Lord" with "Jesus" in a verse referring to God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt, which leaves you with the plausible option that the text contained God's name in a form that Greek copyists did not understand.

    Regarding the passages in the Tosefta that specify that the gilyohnim and the books of the minim which contain the names of God do not have to be saved from fire, I accept that gilyohnim may not refer to the gospels specifically. You say that the books of the minim refers to the writings of the Jewish heretics (e.g. Sadducees, Nazoraeans, Samaritans etc.), but it is not clear why you exclude those Jewish heretics and their writings whose "heresy" was belief in Christ. At any rate, I am pleased to note that you now accept that the minim (whoever they were) did use the names of God in their books, which certainly included the tetragrammaton as the context shows.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    You don't get my argument: the very fact that SO MANY readings of the text have survived, just not "Jehovah"s, proves that there was never a central church authority that could or intented to carry out such a corruption of the text of the NT as that Watchtower assumes. So many versions have survived, just not the "Jehovist" one?

    That the more difficult reading is better (lectio difficilior potior) is a main principle of textual criticism. Of course, this principle can be disputed, but then why did the Watchtower use Westcott-Hort edition as the base text of the NWT, which was also compiled based on this principle of textual criticism?

    There are indeed Bible translations that were made on the basis of principles that are in direct contradiction to the established ones, such as the New Heart English Bible, for example, in which it is remarkable that its Old Testmanet was made on the basis of a supposedly older text than the established Masoretic text, and even the one used by Jerome, based on the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    Heretics are basically those who in principle belong to the same religion, but due to significant differences in certain issues, they have fundamentally different beliefs compared to the main branch of the given religion, and are therefore considered heterodox. The Jews did not consider Christianity, especially the Pauline Gentile Christians, as a heterodox branch of their own religion, but as a new religion different from theirs. That is why, according to Talmudic sources, the Jews did not call Christians "minim" but "notzri". The Christians which consisted mostly of uncircumcised gentiles (goyim) already by the second half of the first century, could not even be classified as heretical Jews, since one had to be born into Judaism. So when it comes to "minim", it does not apply to Christians, but to some heterodox Jews.

    And importantly, the Talmudic text does not refer to "the divine name" but to "names of God" (plural), which does not necessarily refer to the Tetragrammaton. We know that some pagans already used certain forms of YHWH in mystical and sorcerous contexts before the time of Christ, but the fact that this was limited to this shows that in the main branch of Judaism, it was a fact that the avoidance of pronouncing the divine name YHWH was already a fact.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed : And importantly, the Talmudic text does not refer to "the divine name" but to "names of God" (plural), which does not necessarily refer to the Tetragrammaton.

    Earlier you quoted Karl Georg Kuhn as arguing that

    • sifrei minim should be understood not as gospels but as Old Testament texts belonging to heterodox Jewish groups such as those at Qumran as well as to Jewish Christians; and gilyonim should be understood not as gospels but as Marginalia cut off from Biblical texts;

    Are you seriously suggesting that these did not contain the tetragrammaton, or that "names of God" in these texts do not include THE name of God? Whether or not they pronounced it, we are talking about what was written, but there is evidence that the divine name was used by Jews in and around the first century as discussed in this thread earlier.

    aqwsed : You don't get my argument: the very fact that SO MANY readings of the text have survived, just not [those containing God's name], proves [they didn't exist].

    As far as we know, NO readings of the text have survived from the time the church was primarily Jewish. Put aside your fixation of a conspiracy and consider the first audience of the gospels, particularly Matthew, and letters like Hebrews and Jude. Let us just suppose that these writers used a form of God's name when quoting or alluding to the OT. If we look at copies of the LXX from that time, they had the tetragrammaton although they were written in Greek. Other copies had the Greek form of the name, IAW. Let us suppose that the writers quoting or alluding to the OT wrote down what they read. Of course, copies of these are made and circulated. After the destruction of the temple, the nature of the church changes from a predominantly Jewish church to a predominantly Gentile one. Now that the copyists are gentiles, they do not understand what the tetragrammaton is and so do the obvious thing and replace it with a word they know fits the context, usually Lord or God. Maybe this happened, maybe it didn't. But it is not surprising that among the texts copied more than a hundred years later the use of the tetragrammaton had died out. After all, that is exactly what happened with the LXX texts of the OT. And it did not require a conspiracy or a central church authority, it only required the change of the church from Jewish to Gentile.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Earnest

    "Are you seriously suggesting that these did not contain the tetragrammaton, or that "names of God" in these texts do not include THE name of God?"

    No, it's just that you don't necessarily have to think of the Tetragrammaton, that it's about "the divine names", in the plural. I think those may have been magical papyri, or versions of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, on which it was added for the purpose of re-Hebraization. Since, according to the majority of scholars, only Kyrios was in the original version of the Septuagint, and the Tetragrammaton in some form (Paleo-Hebrew, square Hebrew, or "ΙΑΩ") was a later re-Hebraization attempt, which mainstream Judaism considered sacrilegious, that be included in the basic text of a "pagan" language, thus it's associated with some minor heterodox branch.

    "As far as we know, NO readings of the text have survived from the time the church was primarily Jewish."

    I don't know why you want to go back to the era of Judeo-Christianity and reproduce its theological climate. What we mean today by "Christianity" is in fact the Pauline Gentile Christianity, as the Judeo-Christian branch quickly melted into the main Church. The Judaizing trend was at least suspect from the second half of the apostolic age (see Epistle to the Galatians), and keeping the Law (Sabbath, circumcision) was tolerated (but unnecessary) until the destruction of the Second Temple, but after that it became unacceptable.

    "the copyists are gentiles, they do not understand what the tetragrammaton is and so do the obvious thing and replace it with a word they know fits the context, usually Lord or God"

    It is also not clear that if, according to the Watchtower's claim, the Tetragrammaton had theological significance even in the apostolic age and was a central part of the primitive Church's faith, then how can you now claim that the copyists "did not understand" what it was. If the Watchtower's claim were true, that YHWH was as central to the primitive Christian church's faith as it is to them today, then how could they not have known what it was, and no one would have objected to the reading text changed?

    It was difficult for Christians to accept even theologically insignificant translation changes (for example, the changing of the Latin term used for 'qiqayon' (likely castor oil plant) in Jonah 4:6 from 'cucurbita' (“gourd”) to 'hedera' (“ivy”), and a bishop had caused a great disturbance just by reading aloud it, and had nearly lost his flock), which is why it took centuries until Jerome's Vulgate finally replaced the Vetus Latina in Western Christianity. Don't you not that the doctrine of God's being himself would have passed without a word, without it being noticed by any one, and causing considerable rebellion?

    "And it did not require a conspiracy or a central church authority, it only required the change of the church from Jewish to Gentile."

    However, the Watchtower does not claim this, but instead assumes a deliberate, conscious falsification of the Bible, according to which "wicked apostates hated the name of God and falsified the Bible." Compared to that, you are talking about a coincidence, or rather a natural process. But that doesn't stand either, since the converts from among the Jews lived among their fellow Jews, it is also impossible that they would have followed the Watchtower manner of "using" the YHWH name, since this in itself was a crime under the Jewish law, deserving of the death penalty, which would have caused serious riots to break out.

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