To Veil or Not to Veil, that is the question.

by Yerusalyim 68 Replies latest jw friends

  • asleif_dufansdottir
    WTF are they doing in a fashion mall known for Saks Fifth Avenue, Lord & Taylor and similar stores? What is under the veil?

    You'd be amazed. Well, I was. I had this cultural bias that the burqa was along the same lines of 'being plain' that make fundy Christian women never cut their hair and wear ankle-length dresses and not wear makeup. Boy was I wrong.

    I work at a med school. 2 yrs ago, one of our graduates was a Muslim woman. She wore pants and modest dresses, and a hair covering. She and I became friends. She invited me to her graduation party, which was for women only. There were a variety of types of 'modest' coverings, from 'hair only' to burqas with faces uncovered to burqas with faces covered. Then the men left and the party started. They took off those coverings and I swear it looked like "red carpet at the Oscars" - beaded, sequined, strapless gowns, high heels, nails, makeup, upswept hairdos, jewelry! WOW! (let's just say I felt frumpy)

    Here are some things I learned that night:

    They dress for each other, not strangers, not men-who-are-not-in-their-families.

    They like the burqas because it keeps them from getting unwanted attention from strange men (to this I say, rather than covering up the women, let the da*n men learn self control!). They like the burqas because then people judge them by their personalities and their actions rather than their looks (can't argue with that, will just say it should be that way without the bedsheet).

    We ate (yummy home-cooked MiddleEastern food!!), we danced (they taught the Americans to shimmy, we taught them the electric slide), we had a great time! Things like that should happen more often.

    On the subject at hand, let me say that the driver's license is supposed to identify the person, not the veil. If she wants to drive, she should get the picture taken.

  • Country Girl
    Country Girl

    The veil doesn't win! Judge: Woman Can't Wear Veil in ID Photo

    2 hours, 9 minutes ago
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    By MIKE BRANOM, Associated Press Writer

    ORLANDO, Fla. - A Florida judge ruled Friday that a Muslim woman cannot wear a veil in her driver's license photo, agreeing with state authorities that the practice could help terrorists conceal their identities.

    AP Photo

    AP Photo
    SlideshowSlideshow: Muslim Woman Sues to Wear Veil for License

    After hearing three days of testimony last week, Circuit Judge Janet C. Thorpe ruled that Sultaana Freeman's right to free exercise of religion would not be infringed by having to show her face on her license.

    Thorpe said the state "has a compelling interest in protecting the public from criminal activities and security threats," and "having access to photo image identification is essential to promote that interest."

    Freeman, 35, had obtained a license in 2001 that showed her veiled with only her eyes visible through a slit. But after the Sept. 11 attacks, the state demanded that she return to have her photo retaken with her face uncovered. She refused and the state revoked her license.

    Freeman sued the state of Florida, saying it would violate her Islamic beliefs to show her face publicly.

    Her case was taken up by the American Civil Liberties Union ( news - web sites ), which saw the case as a test of free religious expression. Some conservative commentators ridiculed the case, saying it would be absurd to allow people to obscure their faces in ID photos.

    Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail had argued that Islamic law has exceptions that allow women to expose their faces if it serves a public good, and that arrangements could be made to have Freeman photographed with only women present to allay her concerns about modesty.

    "Nothing is more important than making sure that our people are safe, and (Thorpe's) good logic in making sure Floridians continue to be able to be safe is very, very important," Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist said Friday.

    Freeman's lawyers argued that instead of a driver's license photo, she could use other documents such as a birth certificate or Social Security ( news - web sites ) card to prove her identity.

    Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, started wearing a veil in 1997. She had a mug shot taken without the veil after her arrest in Illinois in 1998 on a domestic battery charge involving one of twin 3-year-old sisters who were in her foster care.

    Child welfare workers told investigators that Freeman and her husband had used their concerns about religious modesty to hinder them from looking for bruises on the girls, according to the police records. The girls were removed from the home.

    Country girl

  • teenyuck

    Good! A judge with common sense!

  • Kenneson

    Country Girl,

    It's interesting that child welfare workers (Decatur, Ill.) told investigators that Freeman and her husband had used their concerns about religious modesty to hinder them from looking for bruises on the girls.

    So, Allah is apparently opposed to photograping a woman's face, but condones child abuse. Go figure.

  • freedom96

    This lady is just an idiot. Take off the damn veil, take your picture in privacy like they offered her, and put it back on.

  • Shakita

    Having a license to drive is a priviledge in the United States, not a right. I am glad that the judge upheld this rule.

    I saw a show on a pbs station last week about a family in Iran who were friends with an American woman. This American woman was accepted and liked by the family members and she respected their culture and beliefs by adhering to wearing the veil over her head. In one scene, the women of the house where in a room by themselves talking freely with no head coverings. The minute they heard a man approaching the room, they quickly put on their veils and stopped conversation. I was annoyed when seeing this, but when looking back I realize that this is part of their culture, and that they do seem to be happy being submissive to the men. In another scene, the American woman was sharing a meal with the family when a male family member, a professor from a university in Iran, came to see the family. When the professor saw the American woman there, he asked her if he could ask her a few questions about women in America. These few questions turned into an hour and a half of degrading and insulting inquiries on why women pose naked in store fronts, why they pose naked for magazine covers, etc....... When the American woman tried to comment on his obvious prejudicial and narrow-minded view of American women, he would not let her. At the end of this show he was putting on for his relatives present, he asked the American woman if she had any questions for him. She said "yes." The professor then said, "Well, maybe next time, I have to go now." So much for equal time.

    The muslim women I have seen seem to be happy in their submissive role. Why wouldn't they be happy, they know no different way of life. They do not have the opportunity to see from the outside looking in. Same as women in the WT organization, they accept their submissive role without question. When you leave the org., you realize how controlling this rule is to women, how it is used to keep them in their place. Culture and religion have always found ways to control and inhibit women in every aspect of society. This is a crime that continues to be perpetuated throughout generations of male dominated religions and organizations. I hope that I see in my lifetime more women revolt against their submissive roles and stand up and be counted as equal to men in receiving respect and dignity in their lives.

    Just my little rant for the day.

    Mrs. Shakita

  • Hamas

    This woman obviously follows the more devout form of Islam if she covers her whole face as well, most Muslim women simply wear a head scarf.

    In this case, I think the Judge was right to uphold the laws of the land. If she wants to drive, she should do so with a fully identifiable drivers license.

    Well done Mr Judge.

  • teenyuck

    Very well said Mrs. S...

  • Yerusalyim


    Good point. In fact, good points all the way around. The free exercise of religion is VERY imortant. Public safety is also VERY important. The gal should have known she was gonna lose though. Anytime the ACLU is helping you, you're probably wrong. It was brought out in the case that Islam allows a woman to be unveiled if it serves a larger good, which it does in this case. Chances are this woman is no threat to Society. But if we allow her to be veiled in the photo, we have to allow all that ask, and some of those will be people up to no good.

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