Who holds the Burden Of Proof?

by stuckinarut2 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts

    The onus of proof is usually on the person bringing the accusation. So they need to prove the truth when witnessing, but it is on the "apostate" when confronting a JW.

    A JW would say they have 100 years of publications that outlines their proof for the truthfulness of their teachings. It seems that whilst I get your point, it would not make any difference to a JW. It is up to you to prove them wrong, and it takes a lot of work to get through the indoctrination.

  • jp1692

    It is important to keep in mind that doctrines are actually irrelevent for a cult. Although they all have some unique, distinct ideology that is allegedly their rallying point or cause, the point of a cult is to exercise control over their members. This is why cults can and do change specific teachings from time to time and suffer little net loss of members.

  • waton

    burden of proof is with the person making the statement, if asked. wt's jws are not asking. They do not want to hear it. None are so deaf than those that do not want to hear.

  • DesirousOfChange

    The JW's do not care about Truth or Reality, they simply wish to remain undisturbed in their little world of imaginary gods and an imaginary paradise to come. ~ Phizzy

    That sums it all up.

  • longgone

    If by leaving the supposed truth of the WTS and belief in a God, then why do I after a lifetime of prayers, a lifetime of believing I had a "close relationship with Jehovah" and belonging to the only religion that had "Truth" do I feel absolutely no loss? Why no desire to pray? Why no feeling of guilt for no longer believing in either?

    The only change I've experienced is that my imaginings of God have been replaced with standing on my own two feet. I now realize that I have control and responsibility for my attitude and decisions. Not someone else. I no longer feel like a wooden puppet at of the mercy of WTS/GB/GOD.

    My life continues to have the same struggles as before, some days better or worse than others. However, I feel some inner peace and often joy that I never experienced while a JW and belief in God.

    I think the burden of proof lies with God and the WTS. I personally see no evidence of either. While I respect the beliefs of others provided they don't hurt anyone, kindness and logic are truth for me.


    does the Society need to prove that it IS the "truth".


    Now a Word From a WBT$ Spokesman/Shill.

    Image result for I buried the proof  of my claim out there some where

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    The burden of proof always rests with the one making the claim, and especially if it's an extraordinary claim.

    However, JWs are so indoctrinated that they unashamedly throw logic, reason and critical thinking under the bus, calling it "worldly wisdom", "independent thinking", "satanic propaganda", etc, in their bid to defend their organization and its foolish teachings and policies at all cost. Sam Harris once made this statement (and I'm paraphrasing):

    "If someone does not value reason and logic, what logical argument can you use to demonstrate to them that they're wrong?"

    I think best way to reach a JW would have to be to first get them to see the value of logic and critical thinking - without bringing up their religion, or even the subject of religion at all. You have to get them interested in the subject of critical thinking and its value in helping one sift truth from fiction. Maybe you can do it in the context of avoiding scams by unscrupulous "worldly" con men and the spin of "worldly" politicians. Then maybe, you can talk about the psychology of those who fall for such scams - how they are denial and make all manner of ridiculous excuses even when shown evidence exposing the scam. You basically have to get them to learn how to spot BS and how to spot the BS excuses by those taken in. Then you can gradually shift over to looking at the members of false religion, highlighting all the kinds of fallacies and excuses that religious people give to defend their continued loyalty to false teachings and false religious organization.

    So first, you get the JW to value logic and critical thinking. Next you train him to spot the fallacious coping mechanisms the deceived people use when confronted with the possibility that they've been deceived. Then you relate it to the subject of false religion. Finally, if you think the JW is ready for it, you relate it to his own religion. But this final step is optional. If you do a good enough job with the previous ones, you can probably trust that the JW will figure out this last step on his own.

    So JWs have the burden of proof. But we have the burden of logically proving that fact to a group of people who value emotionalism and blind loyalty over logic.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Venus stated, "...For example Einstein found out that..."

    I think the time has come for us to knock Einstein off the pedestal he's been installed upon.

    Yes, Einstein had a great insight into the relationship between matter and energy - a relationship that most "Einstein-o-philes" can't explain beyond a parrot-like reciting of " E = mc2."

    For openers, take the haircut. You want that? Yet the genius Einstein was content with it.

    How about the great and wise Einstein on interpersonal relationships? Einstein told his wife that his SIX girlfriends (chief among them his cousin Elsa) showered him with "unwanted" affection. Sure, he was just a chick magnet, he can't help it. Chicks dig guys who write superscript 2s!

    It seems he had a daughter that he never saw. He was also uninvolved in the lives of his two sons. Yesterday was Father's Day. Send Einstein a card.

    If you are female, is this your ideal male companion? If you're a guy, is this your best role model? Think before you answer.

    Einstein was a theoretical physicist who at one instant in time was in the right place, mentally. He wasn't a psychologist or a life coach.

    Beyond his famous formula, everything else he said and did is horse shit.

  • steve2

    but it is on the "apostate" when confronting a JW.

    If I may, just a teeny-tiny fact, JWfacts:

    When JWs conclude you are not as frequent in meeting or publishing as earlier, in one way or another, they will confront you.

    It is actually uncommon for the fading JW to confront members of the local congregation for fear of the consequences.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    As always, there is no such thing as negative proof. The burden of proof is with them, the only problem is they have set the bar for proof so low for themselves you can prove anything with scripture but they have structured it so you can only have proof positive if it comes directly from them.

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