CEDARS (Again) Is it really about religious beliefs?

by Listener 72 Replies latest jw friends

  • Listener
    PBrow - The idea that without a god we could not figure out right or wrong is insulting.

    I didn't get that when I was younger. I wondered what incentive there was for an athiest to be considerate of others. Talk about having little trust in human nature but of course it was fostered by JW indoctrination.

    Under the Radar - i think this thread might be more appropriate in the Adult and Heated Debate section. I don't think it presents a very good first impression to any first-time visitors who might happen by.

    You're right, the thread is not in the right section, I wasn't sure where to put it but I was hoping that it wouldn't turn into a heated debate

    UTR - That said, I wonder why Listener chose to post his comments here instead of on the website more directly concerned. Is he prohibited from posting there? Or could this be a case of "forum shopping?" A less charitable person might see it as a form of evangelism or activism in itself, maybe even self-promotion.

    Good question. Yes, it was a case of forum shopping. I thought this was the best place to have a reasonable discussion, both positive and negative being shared. My personal aim was to understand this idea of a war raging on and if it even exists to the extent that was suggestion. A lot of the time Cedar's knows what he is talking about and I wondered if his reactions were more emotional rather than factual. I tried to convey that in the thread title.

    I don't post on Cedar's blog because I have to provide my personal email and although I could set up another one, I don't feel like doing that just so I can post on his blog.

    I'm not a he, I often get referred to as a male, it's not a problem, just surprising when I have a female pictured in my Avatar.

    UTR - As far as I'm concerned, Cedars can post whatever he wants on his site. If you want to take him to task, do it there. If you don't want to hear what he has to say, don't read his posts. But it seems unfair to attack him on an entirely different site. That smacks of gossip-mongering to me.

    I'll take that hit but I don't really consider it as gossip-mongering when he can see everything that is posted here. As suggested previously, I didn't want to play in his playground on his terms.

    I do like to hear what he has to say, he's done a lot of great work and I've added comments on his YouTube channel commending him on different aspects.

    One of his most remarkable pieces of work (IMO) was an interview with a female exJW who had been abused. I think it was a little outside of his comfort zone but he put his own feelings aside and produced a very helpful video.

    UTR - For the record, I don't agree with everything Cedars says and does. But he's performing a yeoman's work in exposing the Watchtower as a dangerous and mind-controlling cult. So is Simon, ApostaChick, Katie Kitten, Jakke Control, Mike & Kim, and many others, each in their own way. Some may be more to your taste than others. You might favor the approach of one more than another. You may find some cartoonish or even off-putting, but that doesn't diminish the value of the underlying message they're trying to put across . They are all to be commended for their efforts, even if you would have put or done things differently.

    I agree with you and it's a great thing that there are so many activists, I don't think it is wrong in trying to understand where an activist is coming from at times, such as in the case of Cedars, particularly when it's not quite so obvious and when there seems to be so many people that think he can do no wrong. I don't see his popularity declining but I don't like to see blind worship either.

    UTR - Well, why didn't you?

    What can I say except repeat a previous comment you made - "A less charitable person might see it as a form of evangelism or activism in itself, maybe even self-promotion."

    The self promotion part seems to be stretching it a bit too far but given that it is likely to be the opinion of a less charitable person, I needn't take it to heart.

  • StephaneLaliberte

    I like John, and I’m always eagerly waiting for his next videos and articles; but frankly, I think he is completely off base with his last article. He basically presents a spectrum of X-JWs based on their activism level and their belief or non-belief in God. Then, he links this to the hatred he has felt over the years and especially more recently.

    Well, I believe that the heat he receives lately has nothing to do with his belief and everything to do with his personality. Simply put, he projects the image of a condescending know-it-all whose judgement and understanding of life is not clouded by his emotions.

    For people like Mike and Kim, who are the exact opposite, this is unbearable, especially when this young little nerd start telling everyone that they are conspiracy driven nuts who are damaging the very cause that they are dedicating their lives to.

    This is what they have, this is what they want to leave behind, doing their best to awake people, support the awakened, and expose Watchtower.

    Yet, to John, they are not only meaningless, they are damaging to the cause. He did not shy from expressing this when he basically called out everyone involved in aggressive activism.

    When I saw this, I personally wrote to John. I related the fact that the first time I looked for Apostate stuff on the web was after I heard “a nut case” shouting outside and Assembly hall: “The WT was part of the UN for ten years! Check it out!” – Then, I went home and checked it out! You may not agree with it, but it can actually work. John’s response? You’re an exception. Most people are driven further into the cult. Well, how do you know? How can you claim to know how people feel? What they think, their fear, their pain, their concerns? None of that can be measured.

    The world is not just about facts. A large portion of it is based on emotions, feelings, sensations, things that cannot be defined or measured. And it is not because we cannot easily define it, explain it, measure it, that it is any less important than the rest.

    When people are on their death beds, they talk about love, their family, friends, the smell of grass, the taste of ice cream, etc. They are rarely debating upon the intellectual understanding of X cause in the world.

    Mike & Kim are all about emotions. They get mad, they laugh hysterically at the absurdities of the Watchtower… and they threaten to kick John’s ass when he calls one of their friends the “C” word.

    John’s response? He writes a five page essay in which it sounds like legal jargons to express the fact that Mike threatened him. That’s how far his personality is from that couple.

    I am not taking side with either ones to be honest. Mike and Kim do sound like nut case from time to time and John sounds like an ass full of himself from time to time. All this to say that the spectrum is not about religion, it is about personalities. He and the “Mike & Kim” team are at opposite ends of that spectrum, and I am very much enjoying the show watching every videos that both of them produce!

  • lambsbottom


    Somebody removed my meme. Ew!

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Started to shared something. Changed my mind. Some things are better kept to oneself.
  • Listener
    That's just being a tease Marvin
  • sparrowdown

    You make some excellent points StephaneLaliberte.

  • LongHairGal

    I only very recently started to read Cedars blog and I saw nothing wrong with it. As another poster said, he is well-spoken and clear.

    As far as him being atheist, that makes no difference to me. I realize the ex-JW camp is comprised of people who are pro-God, anti-God, and those in the middle who do not care.

    I also agree that as long as the JW religion is exposed it does not matter.

  • Muddy Waters
    Muddy Waters

    I'm a little late to the party, but I just read this and Cedar's page.

    What I find amazing in this whole thing is that Cedar's whole blog article was a RED HERRING -- !!!

    the REAL ISSUE was

    *** COPYRIGHT ***

    about the book he was distributing as a prize (CoC) and Mike and Kim called him out on it because it had been printed by a friend of his.

    Rather than deal with the issue raised in the first place (which he only did by accusing them of the same, by their linking to a site which took you to a pdf download of the book), he then went on a whole SPREE regarding non-relevant types of activism and belief -- NONE of which addressed the orginal issue or topic in the first place -- the accusation of copyright violation!!!

    He made a brief, "yeah I did it, oops, but so do other people" sort of defence, but the whole article went on forever and was full of rants and Rutherford-like accusations of evil opposers to his glorious, righteous self).

    This is what boggled my mind when I read his blog and all the replies, where people accepted the red herring and didn't even wonder about his very WT-like bait-and-switch "defence".

    What about THAT?? The damn copyright violation thing, which was supposed to be the crux of this very weird showdown?

    And one cannot reply on his page if it is at all negative or even questioning of him. There is a lot of the WT programming in him, calibrating his brain....

    It seems that when there is even a question put to him, he regards it as an attack.

    The whole article was out of control.

  • the girl next door
    the girl next door
    Its very much like politics. Fan bases. Hater camps. With enemies like that, Watchtower doesn't need friends.
  • notsurewheretogo

    Poor Lloyd is fighting on two fronts...TTATT and still-ins AND exjws as he has ruffled a few feathers.

    I liked his site prior to him exposing who he was as they were very much neutral and informative but now since he has DA himself all his articles have a "tone" that doesn't sit right with me.

    The fact he has admitted that mental illness/depression affects him I really think for his own best interests and his families that he takes a break, no good can come from his recent barney with those nutjobs called Mike/Kim.

    I sent Cedars an email a while ago saying he needs to walk away and enjoy his family and his life.

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