Removing Historic Monuments and Statues - Does the Term "Historical" Make it Right or Wrong?

by RubaDub 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • JoenB75


    Sounds a bit like the UK being traitors for leaving the EU. I think Merkel might agree with you

  • jwundubbed
    1) I don't want angry, unruly mobs going around toppling what they protest are statues of oppressive historical figures. That's not democracy.

    Democracy - a system of government by the whole population

    That is exactly democracy. That is the people speaking up. It isn't pretty and orderly, but it is a form of democracy. Democracy isn't always calm, peaceful, and under control. That is especially true when a democracy is in it's infancy as it would be if we had that government here (US). We don't. We live in a Republic. As do some of the other nations facing this issue. I'm not familiar with any nation that is actually a democracy. We may be somewhat democratic.. but democracy (in the US at least) has been ignored for far too long. The people are speaking and this is what it looks like.

    2) Christopher Columbus, Churchill and other great historical individuals of importance are neither Nazi nor equivalent to Dr. Mengele.

    Christopher Columbus isn't a part of American history. He didn't find America, he didn't even step foot on America. He did enslave indigenous people and hang some of them without trial. I don't think we need statues of him in the US. He was a great explorer, but he was no paragon of manhood or even of humankind. He wasn't well liked in his own time and for good reason. Every person who has a statue is complex and flawed, but I see no reason to keep up a statue of a racist. He should be fine just gracing our history books. He wasn't a great man even though he takes credit for a lot a great things that he never did.

    Racism is equivalent to Nazis. The Nazis are racist in their definition. They are the epitome of racism. It isn't just that they committed egregious genocide against a race of people. They put themselves up as the only worth race. It is justified to compare any racist person who acted on their racism as being on par with the Nazis. Columbus enslaved people instead of killing them. Oh, no he did kill people for committing crimes but didn't give them a trial (fair or otherwise) of any kind. Not everyone is up to the standards of Hitler and Mengele, but racist people and people with a platform that speak out to advocate their racist beliefs certainly would have fit in the ranks of the Nazis. I don't mind saying that Trump and Hitler have a lot in common. I mean, ICE camps aren't exactly the same as the concentration camps but they aren't far from it either. Hitler didn't have special camps just for the children.... but Trump does. And yet, a lot of people in the US believe that Trump is a great man. Should he have a statue too?

    I don't personally believe that Churchill needs to have a statue. I'm not from his home country so it isn't really my place to say if his statue should go or stay. But he wasn't a great man. He was the man in office when very bad things happened and he did right for his country. He fought the Nazis but not because they were racist. He fought them because they were trying to take over the world. Most people didn't even know the Nazis were racist or how racist they were until the war ended. That is another vote for making parallels between the Nazis and other racists. Churchill was racist but much like Trump he swayed back and forth on issues according to what would further his career. He was certainly a paragon of white male privilege. As a woman, I'm not keen on glorifying that in any country anymore. But I see that as being a problem for a long time to come. In the US the people in power still hold capitalism as our highest standard. So, privileged white men will continue to have statues... as long as they weren't openly racist.

    Does the Term "Historical" Make it Right or Wrong?

    You know this question can be asked two different ways.

    Does 'Historical' make it right to have a statue up of someone who is racist? No. But history is full of fallacies. Most of what we learn in school is simplified into making complex and flawed white privileged men, or just privileged men into paragons of humanity. George Washington and his peers weren't all good. Many of them were racist and owned slaves. Being 'Historical' isn't enough to keep a statue up. But what if a person did something so profound and meaningful that it overshadows their flaws. Then is that a good enough reason for them to have a statue? It might be.

    Does 'Historical' make it wrong to take a statue down? No. History has a way of aligning itself with the times. History is written by the victors but it can't stand up against an angry populace. Books and statues have always been at the beck and call of what is popular. That is the very nature of how humanity treats history. 'Being historical' won't save a statue from being brought down and it shouldn't. These statues shouldn't stay up just because bringing them down makes people feel uncomfortable. We, ex-JWs, of all people should understand the necessity of confronting our fears and our uncomfortable feelings. There is cognitive dissonance at work here. We don't want to be racist but we feel it is okay to raise the confederat flag or have it held by a statue of a racist man who did something great. Get real. Now's the time.

    Face your cognitive disonance and recognize that your discomfort is a red flag. Your brain is telling you to look deeper.

  • Anna Marina
    Anna Marina

    Nazis believed in eugenics - but what is anti-semitism?

    The reason I make this point is because I know religious people who frame negative comments about their religion as racist.

    Racism is about skin colour.

    Skin colour does not equal behavior.

    Skin colour does not equal whether or not your behaviour is Christian or non Christian. Whether you treat others as you would like to be treated or not.

    I can't imagine Jesus putting up a monument. Nor can I imagine him taking one down, unless it was an idol.

    You don't need monuments for history. You need memory.

    There is a statue I have always seen. Never knew who he was until recently. Knowing a bit about the history of where you live is interesting. But the most notable thing about this statue was that students would regularly stick a traffic cone on it. Then sadly there was an accident and a student fell off. For a short time, there were flowers around the statue. Then there were no more flowers. I suppose the students of that year left. But I wonder if they remember their friend, whose life was cut short for messing around on a statue.

  • Sanchy

    JWUndubbed: Democracy - a system of government by the whole population

    By your own definition, an unruly mob would not constitute the consent of the majority of the population, and for that matter much less the "whole population". Therefore, mob action is not democracy. To argue otherwise is willful ignorance.

    JWUndeubbed: Christopher Columbus isn't a part of American history. He didn't find America, he didn't even step foot on America. He did enslave indigenous people and hang some of them without trial. I don't think we need statues of him in the US

    Here you begin with a Red Herring and end with a personal opinion.

    The argument was not that Christopher Columbus isn't "part of American history"; but rather that equating Christopher Columbus, Churchill and other great standout historical individuals of great accomplishment to a cruel Nazi Doctor known for nothing but willingly mutilating and testing on countless victims, is just comparing apples to oranges, no matter how hard you try to connect the two.

  • dropoffyourkeylee

    If you took down the statue of everyone with whom you have a disagreement, you will soon have no statues at all.

  • TD

    The people of the South should have a right to memorialize their dead. It doesn't matter if you agree with what those dead people did or thought.

    Attitudes were different about a great many things at the time.

  • phoenixrising

    History has to be taken in the time it happened. To remove a statue because you are an idiot asshole that just wants to destroy, then you need to go to jail. Now there is push back. Author Ash a black tennis player had Whtie life matters on it. The black lies murder are going to start to see MLK statues and others defaced.

    Most people who are very ignorant don't under stand the civil war and what it was about. Slavery was a part but not all that big a part. Lincoln said if I could preserve the union and keep some slaves and others free I would do it, If I could keep the union and and keep all slaves I would do that. The North pushed the South around for years because they had the votes and population.

    In the end this is not about history or statues its about the useful idiots being used such as black lies murder, who are being used as puppets to push the country to socialism and Marxism. The youth of today have been brain washed by the liberal retarded radical professors in colleges.

  • Lost in the fog
  • cofty

    'Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. History has stopped' - George Orwell 1984

  • Rattigan350

    Doesn't the changing of history and eliminating the bad remind you of how the Watchtower has changed their history, removed things from the bound volumes, changed photographs when the people were disfellowshipped, etc.

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